Speaker 3: Welcome everyone to the first actual episode of engineer your career on this episode. We talked to James Buckingham of a side structural engineer with thermostat Lisa North America a curtain wall Contracting engineering firm in Minneapolis, Minnesota. James received his bachelor's degree in civil engineering from Michigan Technological University in 2010, and a master's degree in civil engineering from the University of South Florida in 2011 in at the Florida Department of Transportation since starting at promise to Lisa in January of 2015. James has worked as a staff structural engineer on several projects throughout North America, including high-rise buildings in Colorado, California, Ontario. And notably he was a lead structural engineer on 1144 15th Street off 44th story office tower in downtown Denver in our conversation with James. We talked about the technical aspects and heard a great example about sometimes your career path can take an unexpected detour. Welcome to EYC. Games that start with how you got to where you are today

Speaker 1: while I was friends with a student who has like three years older than me who happened to be working for a facade contractor. I promise to Lisa who I currently work for we were kind of friends, you know each other pretty well Dosha Lee and he went to work for persuasive when he graduated and so he encouraged me to like apply during my time for internship off of a full-time. So every career fair. I am kind I went to permit place in booth and talk to them try to really pursue a working for them. So I really wanted to work in the curtain wall industry and the architectural field as an engineer that really piqued my interest. So I did and I pursued them hard to foresee. Nothing ever came of it internship, but I did have that contact with my colleague from school who happened to also still work at permit Lisa alongside with me, but a job's not turn up by four Sue went to graduate school and got a masters in civil engineering and that did that. If University of South, Florida and Florida State and Florida and works for the Florida Department of Transportation for a couple years before by Khalid on reached out to me and said that Perma Cecil is hiring. They're looking for structural engineers in a spouse still interested, but I wasn't so I took the Glee, but I ended up interviewing and moving to Minnesota from Florida to pursue Structural Engineering position with permit Lisa

Speaker 3: know before your friend that you wanted to be a structural engineer Hut, I guess was it really just the main influence of that person that drove you to be a structural engineer

Speaker 1: College. I wanted to work in Water Resources. Excessively jealous civil engineering could I wanted to help people? I knew I loved math and science and health and middle school and high school elementary school. So I know I want to do some form of engineering I chose civil because it seems the most applicable to help me daily daily lives of people especially Water Resources with drinking water in portable water. So I really went in thinking I wanted to go that route like third-world water development, but once I got to school by fell in love with my mechanics of materials classes in my status classes and Structural Engineering one structural analysis one set base of e change gears for I took all of my concentration courses in structures of steel-reinforced concrete, although I did pursue my master's degree is in Water Resources Engineering in the developing world. So I kind of still dabbled in that before choosing Structural Engineering as a concentration.

Speaker 3: I'm going to step back just a second. So you said you worked for promise to Lisa in kind of facade engineering. Can you elaborate a little bit on what that is for some of us including myself and has no idea what the type of

Speaker 1: work is. Sure. So besides our base with the exterior of a building. What are the skyscraper campus-style building or even your local kind of like strip malls? Like the storefront that you see it's the exterior weather that's glass metal masonry brick. That's all kind of the Passat. It's the skin. It's what for its what is like the air & Water barrier for the building permits Lisa Glide work for we are specifically at what's called a custom curtain wall contractor. So there are different types of facades. The one that I specialize is basically you have primarily glass or stainless steel panels like a framed Metal in our case. We use primarily aluminum enemies have ladies are like 5-foot by 10-foot tall candles that get hung onto the concrete slab and they said like male and female drawing for the kind of allow the building to move and Swae with other. It's an earthquake or with the wind and access that are water going to keep air out to keep your HVAC system running so that you have you don't have thermal games of thermal losses and its structure of nature because we want to stay under the building and protect the public or inside the building while also not carrying the structural load of the building itself. It's all kind of like a an independent system that the buildings carries

Speaker 3: them. So it sounds it sounds really complex. It sounds like there's a lot of things to consider. I guess, how can you let me in your pee freely moved on from the entry level position, but can you tell me like what What's the title of that position? Like what is what is that person doing everyday? Like the entry-level engineer working on curved wall

Speaker 1: which in my case there a company I work for that Meme tattoo general rule. It means I'm a lead engineer and I'll kind of go into that and there but it also means I'm up. I'm a pet. I'm a professional engineer who is science camping oven legally responsible for the for the job in the project. So as a lead engineer really what that means. I'm responsible for the submittal package submittal package is a collection of drawings and the supporting calculations that show that the drawings Warner constructible. You can be built in at 3 and 3 are like are safe and meet all the codes and standards dictated by the governing agencies. Reviewing the drawing that our design team is developing. I'm working hand-in-hand with the designers to come up with the design of what the ferdico framing members look like with the horizontal frame numbers look like how the connections how does one vertical member and one horizontal member get connected. So I'm working with them to come up with a plan, but I'm also doing the math. I do it a lot of equations looking at different types of beam equations and end connection equations to to design those Fasteners. So it's very calculation heavy, but occasionally, I have Junior Engineers who will work underneath me who I will dictate workload at and kind of set the schedule and the plan for them. Additionally, I work hand-in-hand with our HVAC Engineers are working on he gained and heat lost through our system as well as working with the car product design manager who kind of said that overall product schedule a meal girl Budget on how we're doing as an engineering team on this project. So I had to leave my primary goal is that I'm responsible for the calculations, but I'm also respond. So what you working with all the other members of the team that are designed the other aspects of the facade as a p my role is to review all the calculations weather at the calculation I do or the compression to any of the junior Engineers do I am reviewing those to make sure that they are structurally adequate and ask her for the job so I've also along with regret integration by boss to review in the drawings. Right and I'm sighing and stamping them saying that these has been designed according to the most recent code set that they need the standard or whatever. I am working in and I'm licensed in and that this can be built and is going to protect the General

Speaker 3: Public. Okay, so when you started then I forgot. How long did you say you've been working at personally to know when you started did you come in as a time? When was Junior rolls, or do you were you able to jump right into this

Speaker 1: role? Yeah, I know. So I started yep. I started as a junior engineer. So as a as a junior engineer, I was I was very calculation happy I'd say on a typical 8 hour day. I was spending 7 to 7 1/2 hours of that day doing calculations running the number. I'm applying some of that engineering the math in the equation said that you learn in school to the project

Speaker 3: is this predominantly like we think like static class like engineering paper equations, or is this you in a software package?

Speaker 1: It's weird to soccer called Matt cat which is basically a word processor for math for math equations. So most of it is typing out equation sets in mathcad and doing the calculations what what we say by hand but is really like using the computer to do it just like you wouldn't school on engineering Pad but there is a lot of modeling and using the computer to help you. So we have we build a lot of frame models which is just kind of representing the teams in The Columns of the facade system. And then also doing some finite element modeling would we have like an intricate connection or an intricate detail that requires more analysis than a simple spray you would do you some of that kind of character and calculations and computer modeling

Speaker 3: you feel like when you started doing this with frame like coming in as Junior engineer who was working in another area beside structure roll how long it take you to get comfortable with doing that kind of making a switch into this even though that was what you wanted to do and what you had focused on. College four parts of it what what kind of learning curve like ramping up in that position?

Speaker 1: Yeah, so very good at the Steep learning curve, but I wouldn't I didn't really feel comfortable until I got back. I would say I could 9 months in with the first time. I started to feel comfortable doing I would say like are the general design work like a typical design work that we do but I encountered new experiences a new engineering challenges a new design idea on a daily basis to wear like we're always kind of learning and growing but but definitely took a while so specifically with the side design. We're dealing with glass. What do you eat with aluminum with stainless steel either three main materials additionally with silicone for the four primary materials. We use I never learned about school knowledge that we can apply that what I learned in Seal class to aluminum. Like you kind of rely on that knowledge but a lot of it is learning all material types all new material behaviors. And then how you kind of apply the equation that you've learned to those types of the kid that like sophomore year of engineering school when I took mechanics of materials from I took Statics intro the Dynamics and thank those classes are what I rely on a daily basis. It's applying that fundamental engineering knowledge to the problems. I encounter

Speaker 3: I think what's with this thing to me is it seems very different than my experience in that and I feel like I could really use some of those equations. But I guess do you feel like during your time let you know undergrad or grad school. Was there a time that you've you felt like you could accurately describe the position you're in today what I mean by that is, you know could if someone says hey you're going to be a structural structural engineer out in the end. You feel like you could have accurately describe what the day-to-day would be like while you were in undergrad are in grad school

Speaker 1: a lot of like calculation heavy work right like yours a property of the clearly defined problem and I'm just going to solve it and kick out the answer kind of like what we had for homework sets. Right? I think what you learn or what I've learned. In the facade industry night The Strokes on Jeff last five years is that want to clearly Define problem is that is a gift and doesn't always happen and we have to we kind of have to learn how to make some assumptions in simplifications to turn a problem into something that can be clearly defined and soft for would be one and then to is that a lot of times we I'm working with other people, right and the design decisions. It's one thing for me to have a problem and I just create a solution and hand it over to my drafter and save notes Restless. There are times that happened many times a decision. I make as an engineer directly impacts. My designer who's making sure that the that the facade waterproof a good example of a message and I will watch the times change are vertical framing members. For a specific VR custom rifle an early job. I will dictate the wall thicknesses the flange thicknesses of of the vertical play remember, which if you think about it, basically like I think I stick a channel but out of aluminum and I dictate all the sicknesses of those walls for me and might be really easy to say I need this wall to go from 1/8 + 8.15 in to get it to work structurally for the wind load. However, my current job when I said that The mechanical engineer who is looking at the thermal performance of The Wall came back and said we can't do that Right Thurr. It ends up being too much condensation risk with the sticker wall. So we end up having to come up with different need to go to a different options different solutions, like my engineering decision. I have a big impact on other fields than just myself and other team members who are helping design the system and I don't think I ever really imagine that it's cool. I thought it was I work independently and kick out the problem. I didn't realize there was this much collaboration the design team as a whole.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's definitely a common theme that a lot of people run into when we go from being like forced into groups in college projects. They were like no way this is real and doing her homework like by ourselves. It's all the sudden like you're in a group of 5 to 10 plus people all trying to solve a common problem. So yeah, I think that is a really good. Observation, I think we're all running into when we eat when we leave University and then head out in the real world. So is stepping away from what you're doing. Now when you left College you said that you weren't able to get to get a job at Forrestal Lisa it so you kind of took a roundabout way to get there. Tell us a little about what if any plan you had when you left College weren't able to get that job and kind of pursued other opportunities

Speaker 1: as part of my senior design in college. I had the opportunity to do a travel abroad one where I went to Olivia to work on a project for a seasonal river near school down there. And my traveling abroad of being able to work on that and meet kind of local people were impacted by that design and that project that we ended up presenting to them at the end of the semester. It was it was just really impact when I thought I'd just like kind of this called again like that use engineering to to better the world in the better people better society. And so I had the opportunity after that trip. I asked you that trip with the University of South Florida. It was kind of a joint trip between Michigan Tech in USA and I had the opportunity to pursue my Master's work continuing in that development Theme by conducting some research on some hand pumps and Bolivia and it was a it was a great experience something I really felt the store and I really excited about the time to do that to travel to Bolivia and IQ some field research on testing the sustainability. I'll be 10 pumps. It wasn't my specific research PhD students that was collaborating with and helping him with his research experience to work on that

Speaker 3: that was largely an experience driven. Your last probably uses singer design one semester or two semesters

Speaker 1: is it was one semester and it was the last semester before I graduate. Yeah. So does a very like Quick Change towards the end of my undergraduate career?

Speaker 3: Yeah, cuz it's so prior to me prior to January of that year. You were thinking you were going to go into civil engineering job somewhere in the states experience jobs in you know, sometimes it just doesn't work out but it sounds like you had this get experience in that drove you into grad school. So that's it. And that's it. Sounds like how you got into that institution in South Florida. Is that correct?

Speaker 1: And I and I had other job offers with other companies coming out of school that I declined to pursue the graduate school because I did kind of fall in love with that experience and I wanted to pursue that further really with salisa. Who did my kind of was that is is kind of my I want a dream company but like working in the passage was definitely a goal or dream that I was able to do eventually

Speaker 3: how everything changes once you you know, you get older you learn more you finally specific details of things you want to work on and how that like can be really exciting and different ways and hearing that for you and like for Saturday cuz I think it's really cool to be like here's something you would I mean did you know about facades at all before when you heard about in University?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. Not at all. Right. I was like my sophomore year at the career fair, you know running end of my end of my friend who I like my friend co-worker who I knew when I was a freshman the guy ran into him. He was working for the company, but that's kind of like when I first heard about the right, but all the sudden like you see someone else's passion you kind of see for me. It was like seeing the skyscraper seen these Monumental buildings that are being built at Skyline get changed. I kind of just like it got me up with excitement right the idea that I can I can have an impact of changing the skyline. I think as a young engineer kind of being Math and Science Focus, I grew up always kind of seemed especially sports stadiums really big for me how like you kind of get this attachment to a sports stadium in the way. It looks And being able to kind of do that now as a professional so cool.

Speaker 3: What's the biggest projects are the tallest building that you worked on

Speaker 1: a 40 at three-story Tower in downtown Denver 1144 15th Street that I was the lead engineer on for that project. It's all one-for-one really cool thing about working for a contractor and for myself experiencing that project in Denver was you get to be on it from from the start to the finish. So we are at a design-build firm, which is slightly different to where we get brought on in the early stages of the architect coming up with their design plans. So we can you do that initial design all the way till we are designing it where fabricating and assembling the unitized curtain wall to installing it outside. So I was able to kind of early in on the conversations with the architect. Play Stu's design process a b b a factory and assembling the units and answering questions and then also be able to visit the field and solving kind of a kind of seeing this project go from day one, you know today if you like two years later for the product was actually complete, but seeing this concept become a reality and living through that whole process has is quiet amazing experience is something that is honestly motivated when I go to downtown Denver, I see the skyline and I can see which is very cool.

Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really cool. I guess what I heard. So I think there's this process of architect makes the idea the engineer kind of makes the idea of buildable and then you have the boots on the ground who actually construct it roughly am I there? Okay, can you help me understand? I think this is assume. This is may be confused between some people like the difference between an architect and an engineer and maybe if to what you know, like the difference in education requirements between those two titles,

Speaker 1: I know so y'all can text you have their own licensing process and they do have developed. They follow the same design design standards that allow the engineers. Do you like they're familiar with it with the IBC their National Building Code in with a c i n a s c e and Toad are designing with those in mind. Right? But ultimately they're trying to push the boundary come up with something new and creative but they're considering engineering Concepts initially as an engineer. I step in after they have those kind of drawn out and help guide more technically sound design. So what are we actually need to get it and they will do like Rush. Rap channels bra sizes of the members and I will come in and nail down exactly like what the flange thickness has to be how much silicone when the glass is held to the aluminum frame how much silicone do we actually need to do that? Read the architect which is kind of drawn that there is still a

Speaker 3: f****** University architect that like you can't do what they've designed.

Speaker 1: Yes. I happy I could have happened before. Always a fun conversation. Right? Cuz my goal ultimately is my goal is to make the architects of vision a reality. That's what I want to do. But sometimes that's not possible Basin engineering but we we will do whatever we can wear. Our that's doing more advanced modeling or even doing some testing to make those things happen. Like I need to sign some testing experiments and laughed engineer that no, that's not You never just want to say no without providing alternative solution, right? So it's like no we can't do this. But if we make this minor change we can have this outcome or this might have changed that way you're kind of still working collaboratively as a team

Speaker 3: and I couldn't agree more gems in my experience with interacting with people that's always the best to take because it helps just show that you just didn't look at it and you don't care right? I think if you respond back to a hey, I can't do this with a hey, here's what I can do. I think people are way more receptive of that because they realize that you're trying to put an effort like you're putting in more than what would be seen as the minimum amount of effort in a situation and I think people were can respect that and appreciate it too because ultimately we're just, you know, trying to change the skyline in your case. I'm sure the architect would feel the same way. I guess to donate on a little bit of the difference is you talked about the processes licensing process. I for civil engineers. It's called the PE professional engineer. Can you walk me through a little bit of that? Like even like you working in Denver? What does that mean for the process and in just going to help the listeners understand what that means? Cuz I think it's it's Unique to civil engineers more on living that you need to civil engineers, but maybe the structural engineer

Speaker 1: sure. Yeah, so they stay in school. I think both of us understand all that. We take the fundamentals of engineering exam like our last year in school and then every state slightly different in every state has different requirements, but for most state that somewhere between you need two to five years of experience to sit and take the professional engineering exam, which is an 8-hour exam. That covers you actually with the lack of concentration. So there is a structural engineering concentration that I used. The first morning part is like an overview of your four years of school, but honest enough for our afternoon party specifically in your concentration with that you get licensed and whatever say you took the exam answer for myself. I took it I live in Minnesota on based out of Minneapolis. So I took it Minnesota. I got license in Minnesota and then you're able the pan what state you're able to apply for comedy to be able to be a practicing engineer in other states different states have different requirements. So for instance the state of California requires you to have an additional exam where they have you take a survey and inside an exam to be a licensed professional engineer in a licensed structural engineer and their state and different states have different requirements for Structural Engineering so I am a professional engineer or would that pressurize a license? I feel competent and able to work in Structural Engineering, but I can only do that in certain states where a professional engineer candy structure and sharing their substrates like Illinois and like California and some others were as a structural engineer who they are designed the actual structure of the building Labs the column in a primary structure. You actually have to be licensed as a structural engineer, which is the which is a different licensing process then say a professional engineer. So I didn't take the key thing to learn this kind of a confusing system and every state has different rules is that you need to know and you need to do the research on your individual states that you're interested in practicing sopra, Colorado. I was the lead engineer. I was not the PE. So I actually work under a professional engineer who is licensed in Colorado, and he like oversaw are reviewed on my work currently. I working on a project. In the state of Washington where I am a licensed professional engineer in Washington, so I'm reviewing all of that work and for that to work in Washington, all I did was apply for comedy with my Minnesota license with like a work justification explain my experience at my knowledge as a structural engineer for to get approval from them and to get licensed by the state

Speaker 3: if using process that sounds like even even when you're in it, but that I think that helped me understand a little bit more.

Speaker 1: I don't pretend to be an expert by I definitely focus on learning my specific states that I'm interested in practicing it because those are the shapes or I'm going to go like the laws statutes and I'm going to be held accountable to so I don't I don't ever claim to be an expert in

Speaker 3: Do you do any Ike International worker does first Eliza do any work on the unit on specific do it specifically

Speaker 1: around the world. I have not Pacific be done in an international work. However Because we're Global whoever the market in the industry as hot as kind of where the products are. So right now as of 2019, California specifically San Francisco and kind of the West Coast is exploding with new construction. A lot of product be built and sold some of the buildings that are being built in San Francisco by our company are being designed and Italy are designed in Germany or the Netherlands and some of our offices around the globe and I know of the past that some European projects have been designed in the United States and vice versa and that's one of the benefits of that. I found a working for an international company is that has a market moves and changes and as Asia becomes a heavy construction industry or Europe or North America that were able to be flexible at work on different job. So even though I haven't it is something that it's possible.

Speaker 3: That's why you hoping that maybe you'll

Speaker 1: get to Sunday. Well, I would love to see for sure that would be very cool

Speaker 3: related to that. You can do a structural engineering job. At least, you know, it's kind of all job from pretty much anywhere meaning I guess. Can you talk a little bit about like that the geographic requirements of this type of position? Like are there any meaning can you only do this type of job? If you live in North America Europe,

Speaker 1: you can basically live to do the work itself because maybe anywhere and do the work the key is as long as the person in the essence of the structural engineering side of this as long as the professional engineer's license and the jurisdiction of the project that's where it's being built. Then you can work on it in Minnesota license and the region where the work is being done and I can I can sign and stamp that but even as an engineer if I'm working under the peaky in that region, then I can do the work under their super. Bank, so I can be bass in Minnesota be working on a project in Asia. As long as I'm working underneath the supervision of a licensed professional in that country. It'll work. It'll be fine. Dial international logger difference. I don't know enough to speak about those percent but tends to be a hub social civically the North American Market there occurred while company is a sod companies cut it in all the major Metropolitan regions, but most of the larger contractors. What do they have an office in Minneapolis Minnesota? And that's where I'm based

Speaker 3: do the work.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's several beside company specifically since I work in current wall. Those are like Canada compared to know you're with so that would be along with enclosed Walter Wolfe Benson Harmon and Architectural Glass and aluminum. Those are the ones I cannot come to mine. I'm sure there are plenty more out there

Speaker 3: listening to have kind of some other things to research maybe find something else to do. Most of those are still located in the Minneapolis area. Are they have hubs there but there, you know, they probably have headquarters in other states or countries

Speaker 1: are based in kind of most of the metropolitan areas and they have an office in Minnesota. So that's why I'm familiar with them. What kind of like purposely said. We have an office in Minnesota and in Connecticut and in Miami and Montreal right or kind of spread all over the place and looking for a company is ID a specific game. But you know, if you search beside if you took church window wall glazing glass along with Structural Engineering you spying other companies as well. As a lot of these companies are contractors. So you have some companies that are contractor oriented. So the construction side like purposely this but you also have some company that are only on the engineering and design side in aren't affiliated with the construction at all. So which two different experiences from an engineering standpoint come to wire goes to

Speaker 3: what do you think when you were when you like applying this job and trying to get it? What do you think really helped you once they get the job but what kind of made you stand out in the organization to get it or maybe phrase better for people who are interested in working for permaseal Lisa and another similar company. What are the what are the skills and experience that they're looking for when they're hiring someone who's who would be coming into the Junior? In your experience already.

Speaker 1: So I think there's a couple things that I tried to head to. Put a Crosman also now that I kind of on the other side and I'm tired of you looking for junior engineer. Do I look for one? When is interest? I want the one who kind of want to do the work that we're going to do like I want you to be interested in motivated to come to work everyday. So I kind of want to see if you want to work in the architectural field and in society to in I would like to see, you know, a strong understanding and Baseline of engineer a fundamental Structural Engineering knowledge, right? So, how are your stats? How do you understand material properties kind of in general like ductility and brittleness. You don't definitely need to be an expert on how to design with steel and concrete but do you understand, like I like the basic Foundation of engineering from school. Are you comfortable drawing free body diagram? I love is like a sophomore and junior level classes that you have it and I think a big one for besides and we tend to be kind of complex shapes an element on the building. It's a lot of it is like visualizing objects in 3D in our hats try to like design of three dimensional shapes and construction just a stop to any drawing so that the better three-dimensional skills that you have the better able to visualize what's going on. I think think it's a great and useful skill that really makes people more successful engineer in the facade of the street just because we don't use standard steel shapes everything we use has got everything for the majority of it is custom made. So you're really kind of thinking about you and creative ideas to solve the problem

Speaker 3: visualization. There's actually different exams and things you can take that kind of help. You understand if you're You're not so good at spatial visualization. I can you take this block removed as part of the block turn it over and then what would it look like type of thing? Because it's a unique thing that seems none of us are they binary people but there's definitely people who are better at spatial visualization than others. And so I think that's maybe an interesting point to note that that's that's pretty important for your

Speaker 1: job the last 1/2 in that we really stress on it just is communication. You don't you don't know if they have to be a great communicator in a sense of you don't have to be extremely well polished or you're always have to know the perfect terminology to use but are you able to communicate a complex idea? I just can't I just too straightforward and basically I got a basic level for someone so they can understand it's one thing as an engineer to say this doesn't work. We have to change it all the time. That's not a status financier read. If you can kind of explain the engineering Concepts at a basic level to someone without an engineering degree so that they way that way they can get on board and you can then help change a new design that eliminate that problem. So I think communication skills are at least four for Austin amount of collaboration that I do on a daily basis is really important

Speaker 3: so related to education than it sounds like for the most part just an undergraduate degree in civil engineering would be satisfactory to to do what you do. Is that correct?

Speaker 1: Yep song all that. We require is an undergraduate degree.

Speaker 3: But if you wanted to go to grad school you would want to focus is there is there a structural focus in grad school? I guess what is that called?

Speaker 1: So you think you can get a masters in Structural Engineering? Lots of it's very rare for them to be kind of in the facade. Well, most of them are in concrete or steel like the more common engineering materials. And if you have a masters in those fields, that doesn't really you out. Sometimes just having a master's degree in any field or any topic is useful to this but it's like finding a problem solving skills trying to take a large complex problem attorney into something approachable. What steps that I think is very useful in any in the engineering field. But especially in a facade in the facade in to see what we have like a large complex going that were breaking down into the step-by-step part. So you definitely don't need a master's degree. It doesn't even need to be necessarily A Passage, but it There is some useful skill games in that problem solving process that you learn and gradual

Speaker 3: Society of like learn how to learn what you don't know. Like what is the process to be in the situation of I don't know this to while I've got a my best guess at an answer

Speaker 1: exactly.

Speaker 3: You've you've been working there for five years you if you got the other structural engineer one you already have your master's degree. What does the future look like for you in that role? How far can you go come in the technical field for all you done?

Speaker 1: Sure. So as a as a PE So currently I'm I'm serving as a p n on one project. The next steps would primarily be at least in our firm is where you become a PE over multiple jobs at one time. So I was kind of relinquish some of the day of the Day activities as the lead engineer to a younger engineer to someone who I'm like kind of supervising and I become more of a overall project Direction role where I'm kind of helping guide the big picture design of a facade. I'm still I still would be doing all the reviewing of the calculations and all the reviewing of the drawings but I wouldn't be productive daily performing on a daily basis all those calculations instead of be like sitting more and design General concept and design me in 14 more one-on-one with the designers in terms of studying the overall scope of the project and managing multiple projects at one time.

Speaker 3: Okay, where does the line between technical work in management work in in terms of a traditional manager? Is that strictly from the professional engineer or is there also kind of a sub route of management that oversees the technical employees in certain ways?

Speaker 1: Yeah, so so in terms of my firm, which I can I can kind of only speak to that context. Technically I could kind of the management structure from a technical standpoint always runs through like a junior would report to a lead and Ali would report to the professional engineer. But I definitely we have a like a department head who is is a PE who is 10 responsible for their own projects. What kind of sets the standard for the Department for our way that were specifically structured as a structural engineering department. I would been promised Lisa is that department head Meats with all the Pease on a bi-monthly basis to talk about general department direction to even though he is like saying responsible for our performance evaluations and more like doing the HR responsibilities of a manager in terms of the technical aspect. He's kind of working with all the teeth at one time to say, where do we want to be what? Take design considerations. Do we want to decide or agree upon to go to shape the future of our work, but did you have a good apartment manager, which is another which is a possible career step as well of the engineering department.

Speaker 3: Okay. Do you see a lot of people can transition between those roles between a technical in a managerial than medium back to a technical

Speaker 1: role? Yeah, I've seen the manager of our department changed at least twice since I started until it's it's very possible that someone has to fill those duties and I don't agree which has to do with are there someone who's better suited additionally a lot of our Structural Engineers will become managers still become like project managers Wrightsville or product design manager. So it's only working on just the structural aspect of a project they'll move out and then oversee the entire design team select the thermal side of the facade the air water design side of the facade MBA. And like the Mazda model inside so we do everything we design a Bill gets built in the think it's going that computer and we can all PS3 models and still all of that kind of falls under the design aspect of our company cell is like a product design manager that of several Engineers have gone from the structural side into that role with the project and also become project managers. So you end up moving the site and I kind of being like the site superintendent supervising the construction but also kind of working with the schedule in the budget as well. So you would leave the technical aspect of Structural Engineering but you would still be involved with a facade, okay?

Speaker 3: One of the questions I had James. It's just kind of like rough salary things. It really just kind of wondering for like the entry junior-level engineer. Can you give me like, what's the broad range and just Remy never win this thing? I think about salary. There's many many things to think about. I mean, there's there's there's the true salary which includes benefits things and cost of living locally and a lot of other things to consider but I do think it's helpful for the listeners to be will I get a rough idea of where an entry-level job as a junior engineer in this case. What's it do you have any idea what that range would

Speaker 1: be 5 and $65,000 Junior entry level structural engineer. and that might be slightly outdated, you know, it's been a while since I was in that role

Speaker 3: but do you think this having a master's degree in that area? Does that does that help with the initial starting salary if you come in as a junior with a master's degree versus just with a bachelor's

Speaker 1: master's degree is relevant to facades and high-rise structures. Yeah,

Speaker 3: the last question it's mostly related to you know, if I think of younger James, I guess second-year sitting in the library or whatever working on his problems for Statics. If you could go back in time and talk to that James, what would you tell him about? Yeah, I guess anything. What what advice would you give him? What would you want to

Speaker 1: say to him? Yeah, I think I was very much in school. I was focused on solving the problem that hat at hand and like learning the engineering equations that I needed to know how to use to solve an exam problem or a problem and I wish I would have instead focus more on the general concept behind your questions, right? So so really understanding what he means and what they're saying the other material behave under that and understanding brittle medicine and trying to maybe like really understand those core fundamental engineering topics instead of just understand that I've disliked what equation do I use and how do I apply it? Cuz those equations are available to us at any time. I can I can open up a code. I need to use any time of the day for what I do is always figure out how exactly to truly understand material Behavior. So that would be warm is focusing turn it on more material Behavior at the end. And the reason why the engineering equations are the way they're set up and ask those questions to would be a lot of what we do a lot of what I experienced to is that the the equations in the codes but it's a steel color. The concrete code are in with a specific set of assumptions and how they are built and lots of times when I'm dealing with glass or aluminum or different materials those assumptions aren't valid right so I can't just a slight take a general Engineering Equation apply it in this instance it it might not be applicable. So it said if I if I can understand what's happening. At what mile Ozark what like how is that road imposing on the on the element? I'm checking. I can understand how to approach it. Right so I might not be exactly what the code says I need to do but I'm applying fundamental knowledge of the main concept of the code that specific to this. So it's like interpreting the meaning of the code. The reason why the code is written in the language is using and then apply in the meaning to my sister the problem help that help that makes that need

Speaker 3: to be clear by code. You're not talking about like the code you're going to enter into an FBA solver you're talking about like the book of code of how you build with cement fate. Sorry. I said she meant I'm sorry if I was supposed to say cement

Speaker 1: Yeah, you're wrong on that one. That's okay. It's definitely not create. This event is an element is The Binding agent in Concord. Or the steel code or the aluminum design manual which dictates how to design with aluminum or the glass design different packages that are out there from Donna and different agencies. So

Speaker 3: I think that makes a lot of sense. I think if we extrapolate our jobs into the engineer from 10 years or no meaning like oh so you're just starting undergrad now, like it's only going to push more into these equations being solved by computer. And so if you if you're responsible for plug in the numbers that sank It Go, like it really becomes your fundamental understanding the gut check the software out who we know what whatever the output is. If you don't have a basic understanding of ductility or he's other important fundamentals going to be a real challenge to say well that number that's coming out wave your thumb seems right

Speaker 1: Zachary. I think last time it is Junior. I remember the junior engineer. I would get caught the mindset of like to solve a problem like bad here to solve the problem. So it's really easy to run to a computer software. All your numbers your loads in your material properties in and get a result out without thinking through does this make sense right is the way at the distresses Distributing? Does that make sense of how I'm expecting it to and they try and have a better figure picture understanding of the Engineering Process and how the material behaves they just like plug-in Chuck equations or with software

Speaker 3: technical problems changed as you been working. So another important aspect

Speaker 1: learn and grow into their my first couple years as an engineer is like is the idea of simplifying a problem. Ink in school all the times were just given a problem and you just kind of put your head down and saw it and what I kind of learned through the Engineering Process and applying engineering processes that I can take a problem and I can kind of lay out a roadmap for a path on how I want to approach this problem and solve it and the more I can take a problem and simplify it down into easy constructible steps that I know I can proceed through I can turn a problem that maybe would have taken 16 hours if I just want to put my head down into something that maybe takes to stop until I think as an engineer job is like baby being thorough and thinking through a problem before I just died in a car. Do I walk to stop? What tool do I need to solve this problem? And how can I simplify this problem down into things that I am familiar with and I'm comfortable with that I am. Stop and Play understand the engineering of course. It's a really helpful tool and I think an egg being a more productive engineer in a more competent and

Speaker 3: has

Speaker 1: so I need another thing of this kind of a difficult eater struggle for me. And my first two years of engineering was the times to be detail oriented vs. The times that use a broad brush to solve a problem. So I think you're thinking and Ed Sheeran education we get kind of bog down in like here's my one specific case my want the problem, but I'm stopping for but a lot of times I had an example of Inn in current raw is I will have my windows are not consistent across a building right eye and berries the higher you get generally the higher the windows get in a corner where you have sharp edges you get Heat win loads, were you see maybe two times the amount of loads there? it's really easy as an engineer to sometimes to get into that to get like so detailed Focus look like I've got two thousand anchors and I'm going to design these two thousand anchor-point individual one by one until I have a moth South instead of maybe taking a step back using a broad brush and say I'm going to solve 90% of these with one and bed type or what anchor time and I'm going to go to this unique case over here the 5 South in Salt for that and so it's like I'm going to paint a broad brush to solve 80% of these problems and I'm going to be detail-oriented over in this one unique condition because it requires it and understanding New Callaway experience right, but but but being okay using the broad brush approach and then instead of just getting so focused on detail oriented. There's times you need to be but it's expensive to the resources and a time. So the more we can use a broad brush approach. I think it's generally helps in terms of the facade design

Speaker 3: stepping back and looking at looking at the whole picture. I think it's easy to get to dive down into the details and Tino bring your head up, you know hours days weeks later and realize that you could have done it differently or you Polly like Miss the problem in some ways and it sounds like one of those situations where it's like, maybe we should just think about me before we dive in like we want you to solve the problem. Let's let's take some time to look at the place you were trying to do and then then break it down into smaller chunks. Sweet guys, let's at this really helpful. James. It is a lot of love your dad that I really didn't really quite understand but it sounds it sounds like you really enjoyed man, which is the best part. I mean really it sounds like you wake up and enjoy going to work.

Speaker 1: I feel motivated. It's really challenging like a lot of time on a daily basis. I encounter problems one that I've definitely never seen before but even when I go to our senior Pease 15 + years of experience, they've never seen it. So because it's like me architectural feel that Architects are always pushing the boundaries we get to encounter problems in a tree that are unique and different and new and sometimes that's really frustrating cuz you don't always know how to approach it from an engineering standpoint. It's really rewarding when you get to sit down and see through and come up with that with a Sound Engineering solution. That challenges get you motivated to go to work everyday.

Speaker 3: That's awesome. I ain't got the great place to and we just about come up on our time for this. So I must have any other ending comments and us with James said it's been great to have you on the show

Speaker 1: in here is some is really cool. I wish I would have had this resource when I was in school as a young engineer

Speaker 3: by everybody back for more information about the show visit our website at UIC podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with Troy and I if you or someone, you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey, I would like to be on the show go on the website send us a short bio and we made it to invite you to come on and share your story. And finally if you want to show your support, please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player choice.