Speaker 2: In Especial episode of engineer your career we get to hear from me ycs. Very own Troy Bauman about his engineering career and it's continuing education. Troy is currently a PhD candidate mechanical engineering at Michigan Technological University with a focus and Acoustics and vibration. He was previously employed at Roush Industries where he worked on various noise and vibration projects for muscle customers. Troy is both a bachelor's and a master's degree in mechanical engineering for Michigan Tech as well as an MBA from Grand Valley State University. And as well hear this education has been an important part of engineering journey to this day and our conversation Troy talks about the importance of various mentors have made in his life as well as factors outside of work that have influenced his career decisions being a personal friend of mine. I can honestly say that Troy the great guy to be around he loves spending time with his family working on cars and it's always learning new things. He has been here in every episode, but still welcome Troy. Welcome everyone to another episode of engineer your career. And this is a special one is special one for a few reasons. Once we're doing it live in-person together in the Retro a fantastic. Fantastic. We're here in Houghton, Michigan living the dream right now

Speaker 1: on Monday. So we took the time to snow today or 30 years old in different parts of Michigan. And so we had a bit of a challenge that I guess design considerations gas is whether or not you're going to do it in person like Joe Rogan does or do it at a distance with a lot of people are forced to do but it's a lot harder by think from a distant has different challenges. Maybe I should say because you can't read body language, you know getting the flow correct and all that just becomes a bit more of a trick. But our whole point is trying to reach has brought of an engineering audience as possible and it's just not realistic to do that all in person. So it was pretty much of an easy choice for us but one that we still are figuring out how to work through the challenges

Speaker 2: at work. And if you guys if anyone has any comments about that we've done so far has no make better. Let us know for sure. But what makes a day extra special is we do not have a third person joining us. This is our special interview with mr. Tribe Allen himself.

Speaker 1: No looks like to

Speaker 2: get back to you and you know what you guys that way

Speaker 1: the man the myth the legend

Speaker 2: is here folks. That's why that's why I was texting and and because I think you have an interesting career path so far and what you're doing and that you are not. Actively in industry, but you are still doing engineering work through your PhD

Speaker 1: in other ways. I am so I don't know. I guess she's out some of that stuff. But

Speaker 2: how would take a step back and you give us an intro to engineering in your life so far right now since I know pretty well with no one listening probably knows it's so so,

Speaker 1: you know, I should probably start back to High School Troy cuz I think one of them seems about my life and for everyone's life is there's like key people keep mentors that really have set the trajectory of my life and also my interest in kind of like what I like to do, but it's amazing the power of an influential person coming into. Hey, have you heard about this check this out? So I'm going to I'll go by people is my older cousin. He's mechanical engineer and one day. I can't remember where I don't know if we got like a holiday party at Freddy's song. Do you want to come work with me at a lecture? I don't know. I know I'm kidding looking for a job. Probably be a good idea I don't have to do is probably most of the ninth grade ninth 10th grade automated equipment and I went to a shop and balls up some frames on top of them crying the frames before painting and help him with that project, but it's at a different shop, you know, meet me here. And so give me the address and I'll go there and he's basically working doing some of his work out of his friends a barn and that friend is the next civil person. My wife is name is Lauren and Lauren also similarly to my cousin. My cousin's name is Tyson simulator Lida Tyson runs a business out of his barn in automated equipment and they met I'm each other. I think Tyson actually did a co-op and Lauren was either his boss or Mentor while he did The Coop and so they knew each other and this was not related to that but they you know, they knew each other was so I went over there to help them which was pretty sweet and Lauren he had actually just started his company and he asked me if I wanted to help him in addition to helping Tyson does a cat sound like, you know, it's haunted love to learn from me to and Lauren potato. Do they give me I don't like probably the best intro that Hands-On engineering that I could have I could have possibly I didn't even know I could have asked for that. That's the cool part about mentors is like they teach you things that you don't even know you need to ask and Tyson and Lauren were huge part of that. And so I worked all through high school for Lauren sometimes up to 35 hours. Sometimes less than that really, I just depending on how busy we were but you taught me how to have fun and how to fail and still have fun and learn and it I can't I just sometimes I run a Miller milling machine is a device that you use to cut up metal into specific shapes with tight tolerances. Lauren was so good man. There be times like I be Cuttin Up on the mail and I have a print that he had drawn up for me and he just walked by and you're going in the wrong spot. Those funny moments. Good luck heat he do that. Right and I just get pissed cuz I've often the reaction to failure is anger. Like I have failed. I'm frustrated but one of the cool things that Lauren told me he was going to fail and that's okay laugh about it learn from it and move on cuz I mean, I don't know. I just I just love that about him like his ability to do that. So that was a huge. Into another critical thing that Lauren did which I don't even know if he really realizes this but what I was applying to college, I was applying to different schools and I needed a third school and I didn't I didn't know what other good engineering schools in what's a good engineering school ACT scores for the SATs? But different it was I think mostly just like a Michigan thing for a little while or is that I like

Speaker 2: they City also if you're outside of America was probably

Speaker 1: one of the things that use it as one of the criteria to admit you are not so Michigan take out my scores in there like a from that calm is why I went up and toward and that's why that tour was why I went to Michigan Tech cuz I loved it so much open up Urban. Michigan so that's how I got to college so many key people brought me down this path and I didn't even know existed and I don't think it's awesome. I think it's awesome that people can do that. And so Continuing Story got in college chemical engineer took me five years because I wanted to I got a minor in electrical engineering and general

Speaker 2: music really not a lot of people getting mechanical engineering Bachelor's in electrical engineering minor a music minor. What was so why did you want that, I'm not going to

Speaker 1: stop you there. So mechanical engineering probably the main reason was Tyson and Warren mechanical engineer. Lauren didn't have an engineering degree is brilliant and high school and just figured it out, but it was all in the mechanical engineering domain. So I think that's what pushed me into that in addition to another influential person in my life my father who was time building things with him working on cars and so I felt comfortable in the mechanical The chemistry or electrical engineering domains. And so I figured that's that's where I go the electrical engineering in Psalm. The minor would force me to do that kind of forced me to take classes and explore. I've always been a big music person so that I knew I wanted to do music. It was really a fun thing. No one told me at any point in my life get a music minor you should do that cuz that would be a good idea but it was me like I like music and I wanted it to be a part of me and so I just did it because it's me and one of the interesting things about the music minor is for all of my coops and internships. I probably spent more time in the interviews for those talking about my music minor then I did anything else

Speaker 2: you need cuz most people are in engineering at myself included are pretty boring dry people who want to talk about engineering or they're getting it because they have at the end. But then probably give you something unique and I think also based on what you're interested in mechanical engineering tide really closely into what you were interested in.

Speaker 1: Let's go to come back to the music thing. But I think the thing I want to comment on that right now is really this idea of you can look at some things like cost-benefit analysis semester going to cost me $15,000 which is it called the direct cost. But then I have opportunity cost of not making a semester's worth of engineering salary at 60000 a year, right? So you can you can say that that cost me twenty twenty-five Grand to get to Miner and that's one way to look at it. And I think that's an important way to make financial decisions is to way that but I never did I didn't think about it and I just did it. I made him I made the emotional decision of I'm just going to do this and I'm interested in doing that. And so I think I think that's also important to do too. But yeah, I don't know. So anyways, let's continue continue on so the neck of the next influential person in my story your bod check he works at caterpillars and noise and vibration engineer there and he's the one who interviewed me for a summer internship at caterpillar. I had gone to the career fair and I met with a different rap. I think it wasn't Joe. It was a different rap at the Boost and they're like, yeah sure. What's interview at you at this time. I think okay awesome and I go and I sit down for this interview and Joseph across the table and just totally great. We had a blast talking and you can talk about the music thing a lot cuz he was also interested music music ever thought about noise and vibration. As you're like discipline of Interest. So as a sub does sub-discipline of mechanical engineering noise and vibration as that's of this one. I was like, I have no idea what

Speaker 2: you're talking about.

Speaker 1: What do you mean? I don't understand how mechanical engineers do that needs like

Speaker 2: at this point in college. Have you gotten to the point where you had taken any of those glasses? I think I think I'd take him. I can't quite remember.

Speaker 1: I think I taken by Vybz vibrations class as a dedicated vibrations class, which I don't think they did and I think I've been kind of like but so I went and did the internship Peoria, Illinois working out outside. I was fortunate to be involved in the test group Sonos evaporation is test based and modeling based typically the kind of a division or meaning that there are there different in some smaller companies. You may do both I would argue that you try to do both. But anyway, Are you actually on the field you're taking data. Are you driving the equipment? You know, you're you're outside. You're in Pacific test Chambers you actually acquiring the data to make decisions on so I did that for summer and absolutely loved it. It was super enjoyable and I thought this is totally me because great about it was the ability to kind of combined my hobby of music with my work life and what I mean by that is I can go to work while I was there. I got a choir data, I could use an instrument grade microphone and acquire the the motor grader as it drove by and run it through hardware and software to get an answer and if I went home and recorded my keyboard at my apartment that I brought down there. It was the exact same thing. I mean didn't use microphone but I still use the analog to digital converter to take the sound putting it bring it into the zeros and ones from their process it and all the processing is the exact same low-pass filters, you know, they're the same. I do it on my own vocal recording for a track or if I do it on the motor grader as it dries by That was really cool because it allowed me to essentially have a can credibly technically technically accurate background to my hobby and work it seem like great and so that's what really got me into noise and vibration as my specialty. So I came back to Tech that fall that was a professor and other influential person who got me into some undergrad research. So just volunteering my time to do undergrad research. We're doing some data collection on a violin. So this is mechanical engineering Professor K. And he's doing research on a violin what they were trying to get my data was going to input into another person's model of a violin to try to replicate why the stradivari violin is as good as it is everyone always wondered why the Stradivarius violin why is it worth so much? Why is it's like it's known as like the fancy violin and they were trying to model it to understand what exactly about it was unique. So they remodeling it and then a $50 cheap by Just to compare the differences do they need an input data for that specifically how the forces went into the bridge too excited. And so what I did is I took a high speed camera for my undergrad research at the high speed camera on the violin and the bow across it and then recorded his dream as it moved in high speed camera. Can then track like different point on the string and essentially measure how much the string was deflecting and if you know the string and its tension you could know if it deflects this much putting this much forced into the bridge until I was the first product it so perfectly. It's like it's the same if my hobby and my job in st. I think it was so awesome. I got really really fortunate that. Yeah. So I guess from there I moved into our finish my undergrad mechanical engineering fortunately around that time. I met the love of my life Andrea, who is Ben another person in my life. And so because a different life things as it happens with your partner, he know you figure out your your kind of Life plan was to get together we decided Downstate to Grand Rapids Michigan next she was working on a medical degree. So she was starting her first two years of med school. I decided to get my Masters in Business at that time. We were just different different. I don't know. I mean this whole conversation about when is it a good time to get your MBA should an engineer get his MBA

Speaker 2: you were going to Grand Rapids for another reason which is not necessarily or leading reasonable you chose to get an MBA instead of starting work in an area that has at least a decent number of engineering firms to work for work that what pushed you to get the NBA specifically than this case.

Speaker 1: I think really the main reason was as a had a deep interest in business and I kind of thought it was going to be a chicken-and-egg situation as with with education is this idea of like if you don't know the words and how to how to like think about the situation which is what education gives you then you're not going to get as much out of the experience and you can have a bunch of work experience and then eventually get the get the language to communicate it in that like, I don't know it's like which one comes first and so thinking through that I thought maybe having I felt like I really struggled with the wording and understand the terminology. So I thought the NBA first might help me and really it just felt like it was a good time. I was able to get an assistantship to cover my tuition and you know, I I knew I was only going to be in Grand Rapids for two years. And so I kind of felt bad if I was going to start working at a company and then leave or two years later and the other thing is is like I knew life was going to get busy later and going to school. I went to remind me that I did all night classes. So I'ma classes for 6 to 9 p.m. Even though as a full-time. Taking four classes a semester. Although a lot of people are going with we're doing it at night, you know, they were doing one class at a time for five

Speaker 2: years to get the degree in a while

Speaker 1: just to 69 there. Right? It's at least one other night during the weekend probably or during the week of doing homework and stuff. And so I was I was really impressed with those people. I think I just knew ahead of time before I started that if you could if I could get it done so I decided to get it. Yeah, I think I gained the mean things I gain from it was it felt like I learned a language almost like learning Spanish. I learned the language of business which has helped me a lot. I was also able to network a lot with the contacts. I got to do my MBA one of the most important things. I mean if you go to get like a Harvard MBA, it's arguably the biggest thing is gaining the network. I'm so that's a consideration and then yeah, Big brother probably the two biggest things in so really what you think about getting your MBA you have to think about why you're going to get it. What do you want the language? Do you want the network? Cuz that'll help you start to think about where you should go for your MBA.

Speaker 2: So at this point in your life, you are your fighters on the grab two years of NBA. So, you're 7 years into Education Direct. What next?

Speaker 1: So the next thing is actually to move back to the U P and get my Master's in engineering. So soon as I kind of a unique path, but you have to bring in my spouse to this because it was in a relationship because my wife needed to come back to the U P to finish her medical degree. And so it worked out well cuz she was going to be in the in the UK for 2 years that I died in those two years could get my masters engineering. So that's what we did a 14 to 2016 moved up back to holding the first time we lived apart. That was really really challenging I brought about new challenges to go to the relationship new is a totally unique challenge in one that I think we were up to but was still hard. But yeah, so I did that got my Master's with a focus in noise and vibration. So it's many classes as I could I got tooken. Vibration at Michigan Tech. You can get your Master's three different ways. You can do was call the coursework Masters where you do 30 credits, of course work. You can do a report option where you do, so I'm going to get strong some like 18 credits of classes in 12 credits of

Speaker 2: research. Yeah, like 30 year 24

Speaker 1: hybrid of research and classes and then you can do a thesis option where similarly is a mix of course working pay research. I decided to go with the report option. Mostly for the reason that it allowed me to use my report. My research in my report as my was called the polls in defense of my PhD so really the Masters was intentionally a step into my

Speaker 2: PhD you knew once you started your masters that you wanted to get your PhD then no, I didn't know probably until

Speaker 1: a little ways in so I might Weiser who for my Master's his name is Andrew Bernard. He's a person I never met before so he started back at Michigan Tech the same time. I started my Master's he had gone to Michigan Tech in early 2000s and then went and got his PhD at Penn State and Acoustics and then moved decide to come back as faculty to Michigan Tech. I never met him and but once I once I'm at in my first year of my master's like it was awesome. He was fantastic. We got along great and I could see myself continuing to work with him through my PhD in so that as I looked at finishing up my Master's I sent that tried to then focus it on bringing me to a point where I when I finish my Master's I was able to be a good way into my PhD in SoHo Yeah, so I guess let's let's talk a little bit about that cuz I think I think it did all kind of message together. But when you get your PhD, you know people think 45 years. It really depends. It's not really a set time. It really depends on the research. But essentially you have to take classes. Once you taken a number of classes, you have to take what's called your qualifying exams. Some are written and oral. Some are just written mine were just written meaning like some I think you make mathematics common where you literally sit in front of a person a professor and they ask you verbal questions you have to answer I did not have that. I just had a written exam where I had to basically basically it's like the pics I think three or four classes. I can't remember and then they make they take questions from the final exam of that class and build it into an exam for multiple classes and you have to pass it to prove. You know, you're too technical aptitude. I guess if you will. So I did that. The other thing is you have to after your first couple years you have to do a little research and kind of figure out what you want to propose to do in. So this is called your proposal show me the qualifying exam and then there's your proposal and so during my first you're doing my time in my Master's I sent you it was able to use that research to get to the point where my Master's report defense was the exact same presentation and meeting as my PhD proposal defense like I was able to combine them together so that at the same day and time I gave one presentation. I wrote one report and that was counted as my Master's report so I can get my Master's Degree and also my PhD proposal defense so I could check that box and move into I guess the final stage of your PhD or second final date, which is just the research research mode. And so I was able to leave in 2016 with I mastered complete and being research only mode. I'm just doing research. I'm not taking classes. I'm only doing research and so that worked out well because in 2016 I moved to Detroit

Speaker 2: so talking about that move then because not everyone knows this Troy and I'm a freshman year of college. So we've known each other since 2007 roughly and at this point we are actually both back in Houghton and when you and your wife or siding what you want to cut what you were going to do next I thought I feel like I played a small role in that at least in some ways to get that out because I think this is an important part of now you and made a lot of jumps before going to Grand Rapids going back up to Haughton, but now you were finally going to a place where you're going to be somewhere for at least 3 years and you were going to start working and you had to figure out kind of the balance between what you want to do as a career in the afternoon available for you as well as what your wife needed for her. So what was what was the decision making that because I think a lot of people get the points in life where they have to decide with their spouse when you're thinking about moving for 4 number reasons for for jobs are being close to the family or just relocating somewhere else. But what was what kind of conversation of Frosty that you guys have when you're trying to figure out where you were we where you're going to go to start off. I guess kind of the official part of

Speaker 1: yeah. So this is a difficult time. I probably need to give a little bit of background on my wife's situation. So everyone can understand the breath of the decision to be made but there's a lot that goes into this idea of like two people trying to maintain their careers and trying to move to a different place. Like how do you do that? So I guess I missed it back and talk about my wife's situation. So as a medical student in the United States, once you complete medical school, you have to apply to a residency in your specialty. So meaning you complete once you complete your empty your four years of your medical doctorate. He's I need to go to a residency for a certain number of years based on your specialty to be trained to become a licensed physician in that field. And so at the end of 2016 or may of 2016 when I finish my Master's my wife was finishing her MD. So she needed to go to a place to do a residency and I needed to go to a place to start my job until that was the start of the question like okay, how do we do this? So for my wife's perspective in order to match the color match for residency, you have to go an interview at a bunch of different places and apply and if it's a huge process and I can spend hours just talking about the whole match process, but I'm not going to get into it but it's actually know that she's she's needing to apply an interview at many different hospitals that have an emergency Medicine Residency because she wants to be trained as an emergency medicine physician and I need to find a place and I can have a job in so we tried to essentially start talking to our networks and growing hubs where we thought that could happen. So we would we know we are looking Troy we were looking at Rapid Michigan. We were looking at Milwaukee Wisconsin were looking at the twin cities in Minnesota were looking down in Illinois at work since they building this this networking. One thing that I think was critical Ops want to talk about is I was very honest with all the companies that I was talking to that. This was the situation and I think that's important to do some people think Ikea you just lied to me out. I want to work for you, but I went to people and I was just totally honest I said, hey like my wife and I are trying to find the next move one spot. I'd love to come visit to your company company X. I think it would be great. But here's what needs to happen in order for me to get there. Let's talk there's a but there's a chance that I might say. No in some companies. They were awesome. Totally get it will just hang back and you let us know when you figure it out in March and then if you're coming here great, some companies were really interested. Here's a job offer. Like they were willing to do that, even though they know that there's many of the things

Speaker 2: that could he was elected.

Speaker 1: You say it like that. I just need to say like if you're honest with people, yeah, like they're going to do what they want to do and Yeah, you know I'm a respectful way to go about it. So I think that's one thing if you're trying to make a move with partner be honest with the companies you're applying to about what you're trying to do. And I think they'll respect you for

Speaker 2: that, The honesty in the job searches is an important thing even when it doesn't seem like that's the way to go.

Speaker 1: There's a lot of weird things in job hunt said it seems like people are not honest and yeah anyways, so my wife has two parties places means anything about the match for Physicians is that you literally you submit a list your rank ordered list meaning one through X number hospital yet. You want to bring that and then it fits into this National algorithm that matches all of the medical students in the nation to the hospital that they're going to train it based on the list of the applicants that the Mets dunes and the list of the residency programs and there was too many questions and so literally might like we're going to be set by this match until we work together Andrew and I we came up with the lot Far rank order list together and we knew that each of the places she drank I had at least one contact in for a potential job. And that's what we did end up matching in Detroit, which was probably one of the best options for me just because there's so much noise and vibration engineering happening in the automotive industry. So yeah, so that's how we got to Detroit that was that was the process of how do you take two people trying to advance her career? And I think a big part of that is open discussion with your spouse open discussion with a partner open discussion with the employer's you're potentially going to work for and compromise and saying hey like Like I want to rank this city is number one trying to call but I'm pretty sure Andrew didn't want that one though. I know for sure. Like I know there's like she would if it was her by herself. She would have had the rank order slightly different people trying to compromise with me and me with her to come up with a list. Stop, that's everything is hard because you don't you don't know me like you think of these likely city. Thank you interview of these places, aren't you think like it's going to be awesome, but you don't overstay DP but you don't know what it's like to live in Morgan City LA. You don't know what it's like to live in Morgan City that you're just guessing they send the interview and so you can make it hard to really feel confident. I think I think City if we both went to CDA it would be the best

Speaker 2: that can be the same now. Also when you think about starting a job somewhere when you have multiple offers to different places of it's not that serious even living in the same city not moving in the same city as well company a seems good or company D seems good, but I don't think anyone really knows until you've worked there for a little bit. So at this point now you if you have a bachelor's degree, you have an MBA you have a master's degree in mechanical engineering you're still kind of working out of Ph.D on the side a little bit. Let's say, but you're finally starting. First full-time. Last longer than a summer job here. So what what is what is that? Like, what were you doing? And how do you

Speaker 1: work on? So that job was very fortunate to be Roush Industries. So Rausch. There's there's some of it was really famous in my can ask around for any way they make they are owners of NASCAR teams, but that's a different wing of the business. I was in essentially an engineering consulting company. So I worked for a small part of the company that does noise and vibration Consulting for a wide array of companies mostly Automotive, but also the other things and so for those listening to an engineering consulting company, they don't necessarily make any products themselves. They can salt they're essentially Services their labor their time their equipment to other companies as needed. Typically if it's a big companies because they have resource needs like if you were a big OEM you might not have enough nvh engineer noise ever. Harkness Engineers, so you may consult out sound because you need more labor essentially if you're a small company, maybe you need to consult just because you don't have the knowledge or the equipment, you know, you don't want to buy a hundred-thousand-dollar did acquisition unit. So you just consult on a $15,000 project to just to just to do that one specific thing and then you'll do it again in four years when you

Speaker 2: again

Speaker 1: and so I was what's called a project engineer, which meant I have to do a lot of things which is the cool part about Consulting but what it's like to work my impression was like to work for consulting company and it was like to work as a project engineer. So I'm going to start with the project engineer part of the project part. I was essentially responsible for every projects Technical and financial success. So a project would come in. What's a $15,000 project company X has a widget that they wanted prove the sound on its Dammit Man issue a certain area. Case where it runs like this, it makes a noise when you that not to be there. So I was involved in the whole process of that. So the company would contact us. I would reach out to them understand their their objective what they want is best I could cuz they're not they're not technically the issue. I need to it take their language interpreter into technical things. And then from there right my best quote. I think it would cost to do that. Sometimes those quotes are fixed price meeting there a fan cost $15,000 to do this sometimes our time and material meaning like typically the more I don't know how long this much per hour for an engineer our this much per hour for equipment hour and let's start with $15,000 and see where we get but it could go more than that depending on what we find. So I would write the quote I'll get it approved by my manager at send it out. That's it. We get it in they send in a purchase order that says he will pay you this amount to do the work. And I never contact them to hate. Okay, let's start off meeting have a meeting talk about it again. Two things would change slightly from what what I talked about before, you know, sometimes you can give me time y'all quotes for 4 months earlier, you know, sometimes you know, sometimes people are like we need to go outside. Cuz anyways, so proud as the engineer, I would either do the work or I would help delegate the work to the Myriad of people in my group was 23s people of a mixture of Engineers and technicians. And so, you know, that can be having the technicians take it apart and star instrumentation. Take the data me check the data. It's typically what would happen typical work while would be I would write up a work request of hey, I need these tests done in this way. And then the technician was going to execute that test and then bring me the data I would then look. The data processing data make sure the date it was good and then write the report out to the customer all the while updating the customer and what's happening what the status is and then giving creating the report myself and bring it to my manager. So you can review it another technical lead in the group and then we presented to the customer and say hey this is why it's making the sound here's how we like typically a good job of doing actually physically changing the part. I was probably one of our biggest things as we will actually give you a change. It's not just like well, we think it's this so if you stiffen this up a little bit of your better we would go and actually stiffen it and show the improvements. Here's here's what you need to replicate any

Speaker 2: manufacturing process to fix it for you doing the design work for that then send find the results of the date of what needed to be done in the next week going ahead and doing it or were you recognize someone else than Roush of hey this needs to be stiffened up. So I

Speaker 1: would be the one that would help but I would come up with the Prototype fix if you want the car like that like I would be the one that's okay. I would go and blue aesthetic neuron or welda Stifler or I would have someone else of the TV with fabric fabricator. I will be pretty common for most liked things to quit a fabricator us to have sent. You know, hey Joe, I need you to going well this to this but I couldn't I wasn't communicating engineering language to these Debo in rigel. I mean, I wasn't saying Hey Joe, I need the stiffness to increase 50% for this mode frequency how to hey, let's take to by to beam. Weld it from here to here at these points. You know, that. That's where the engineering was. It was it wasn't it. You don't understand the problem in engineering but thanks communicating that cuz one of the hard things about engineers is it what is it? What exactly do we need to do to fix the problem? Do we need to weld it from here to hear do we need to weld this point to inches from there? I know that's that's always the hardest part especially when you're under timing in financial constraints cuz it's it's always hard data. Well, let's get this iteration to do we get this generation 2 and yeah, it's actually a great segue into into my second big boy. Don't talk about what it's like to work for a consulting company. We're really the biggest difference that I noticed. I was intimately involved in the financial intimately involved to the point where I like if someone is a technician came to me and said hey, you should we take another iteration. I know you know that maybe this operating condition on the widget to see if it made it better. I would literally be having to think. What is it? What do I think it would do technically how much would it better would have been of the presentation would have been of the customers understanding? How much is it going to cost like a like I would say okay. The test is going to you know, if the test cost for hours, I would calculate that x r cost and I'll say it's going to cost my project this much money do that test in my going to get is my customer going to get that value. And that's what that's what I would try to do as much as I could think I like is with my customer want to get this value and you know, maybe maybe it's not a date of original set out plan, but it would be a good day to set for them to have like something that in the presentation maybe a call. This is great. This is really value-add to me. I might do it even though I was outside of scope but that's that's a business that that's that's so involved in the financial side. Where if you work at a big company, it's my understanding that you have no idea what's going on with the money. Maybe your director above you might have a little bit of an idea. But if you're going to go out and take one more test data, that's probably mostly in your mind whether or not you can get the resources to do it wasn't how you can get to the track time. Are you can get the chamber time or whatever. I still have the same constraints, but I also had this big bear of financial constraints because project financial success was also a big part of my apartment managers and shoulders everyone else but it was it was part of the project manager position. I think I think being on such a low level and so intimate with the financial constraints is is you But it also gives you great ability to do whatever you want meaning. Like I I was the financial approval on my project coming within reason, but if I needed to go and spend $500 to buy something or if I needed to decide if I was going to spend another $100 to ship it overnight to get it tomorrow. That was my decision until I would have to think about you know, like if I do I need this a day earlier. Is that going to be better than going to make it so that my you know, my pipeline works like this is everything in the workout right now. I would I would be able to make a decision at 4:59 in you not not have to get 10 layers of approval and then I could have the part the next day and continue on with the tests would be very quick in my turnaround time for a lot of things because of that

Speaker 2: you're doing this and obviously this is not necessarily new skills in an undergrad and Engineering courses you going to get a rough estimate? You should think about cost in these sorts of things. So what was it like coming into something that was Not just technical but highly project management Financial time planning. What was it like coming into that for you? Was that something that you felt comfortable doing? Where you learning about? It kind of on-the-job how to be better at it or was there some way where? This is what it is. That's great.

Speaker 1: It was a lot of failure in a negative way. But in the in the way of I had to learn a lot and typically that meant I learned by failure of just because it's not just because it was it was like well, you know, okay, I'm going to I'm going to go in a choir this extra data it was going to cost me this Majin. No Ken on my projects over the amount over my cost limits. Yeah. Yeah. I try to limit your exposure and I think my manager did a great job and I think really if you're the manager of someone like me in that position, you're really all about managing risk and managing risk exposure for the people under you and you're trying to watch it one to make sure they're not getting a little too too much risk in their project. Enter my manager did a great job of helping me with that. Allow me to fail. You know, I meant helping me to learn when I fail but I think I may be unique in that. I really liked it. I really I really dug into the financial side where I think other Engineers didn't because it was whatever to them but they're probably no lack of Interest or lack of comfortableness. They just didn't really have too much of that mean they'll learn what they needed to do to handle the financial but they didn't maybe have interest like I did because in addition to managing projects. I also did some business development business development being the broad term of helping to bring business into my group. So helping with marketing things helping with making flyers sale sheets these kinds of things just you can just reaching out to people, you know, doing a lot of like LinkedIn stuff out of contact people saying hey, if you need anyone that does this let us know like I did a lot of that too because it was an interest in making that that ability to be able to be a lot of stuff and it's one of the great part about working for a small consulting company if you can do Whatever you want what I mean by that is if you have interest in a broad range of things, you can really scratch all this interest in it and consulting company because they have needs for people to do all these things. They want a bit have business, that they can't really find the right person because you need a technical person cuz they're saying technically what's going on before you even start to work. If you don't you're not going to lose a lot of money you need to know that if they say these words that means the test is going to increase tenfold if they say they want to do temperature testing. It's going to be a huge amount because then you got to get a temperature change Ur, and you got a you know, you got to pre-soak the car for 8 hours and you got to do their these trigger words that are technical trigger words that are super helpful. Yeah withdrawal interest to me and I think why I was well suited and having the NBA was a good background for that because it allowed me to understand the financial better. Cuz I knew the language right at least exposure to the language in there. I could also better understand the constraints of my customers. I had a better guess as to how they were trying to fit sending out money to me into their plant, right, you know, if I'm working with a director at SEMO a.m. And they have a budget and they have a plan in the you know, they like they have constraints to and I as best you can when you're trying to consult with people is understand their situation financially and technically and help to be the solution to their problems. And if you think you can be successful at that if you're really good at understanding their financial and Technical problem and what what it's like to sit in their shoes, this is potentially what I would try to do, you know, try to sit myself in their shoes and say, how can I be the person that's helping them? And I think the NBA allow me to better

Speaker 2: understand them. So let's talk about the fact that so working as a consultant company also means you're not tied to one particular project for the course of Eternity. Like you may be working at a larger company that designed the manufacturer or something. So you were working in noise and vibration, but you were doing that across a range of projects. So is that like for you and a sense of you're doing a tactical error you like but the problem is on the serve the same problem every day or the same product that you're working out everyday

Speaker 1: thought it was awesome. So I got to work on a bunch of different products in a bunch of different segments meaning Automotive Aerospace oil and gas entertainment like consumer goods. Like I got to work on everything from half-million-dollar supercars to $50 blenders.

Speaker 2: sometimes in the same day just because

Speaker 1: that was awesome because it made me really realize how much noise and vibration problems are in the end that alone let alone my at home recording but also in the blender I'm using or in all in its unique exposure to that and also realize just out differently companies can operate and do the same thing. I'm a lot of it was Automotive in so just realizing the different difference between labia a domestic automaker and a Japanese automaker and completely different culture and now they're still able to build a car but do it in such a different ways. I thought that was really really is this idea of at any given time. You can have multiple projects that require something of you right now. And it's different. Maybe if you have a manager that says hey Brandon, I need you to do these five tests and you like okay manager, you know, I can't do them. All right. Now, which ones do we want to do first? Help me set the priority. Well, what if each of those 5 test is for a different company, maybe even a different competitor of each other and hard how do you go to competitor and say hey I can't do your test today because I'm doing competitive beast in the stuff. That's a tough situation to be in in one that I really didn't like that. I didn't enjoy that part of the job. I didn't I didn't enjoy letting down my customers because I was so busy working on projects that happened but it was definitely not something I liked to do. So luckily. I don't know this project, you know, they sent me the pictures of the first they get priority in my queue. I'm sorry about that, but that's enough to give me the perks of the faster. I can if that's typically how we ran is whoever got us the money first. They got priority in so As soon as I got a purchase order I could book sell time. I could book it acquisition time and say and hold it but it's still had a bunch there so much over. Times do you back to your typical projects were two two six weeks in in length of the ones that Iran Iran projects sub a hundred thousand in new in their projects go and so those are you naughty thing as an engineer time something like try

Speaker 2: things like $2,500 a week or something like that

Speaker 1: engineer weeks. Is this you think? Okay. Well, let's say it's $25,000 projects. That's whatever 10 weeks of engineer time. But if you have it, if you bring in a Cell, you know, that that's going to be this much cost per week and they start to think about this idea of engineer plus resource that cost per week is this in so you can some people quote like that too if there be like, hey, I think you're probably going to be 3 weeks of engineer data acquisition and Celta. Let me know that's why I know somebody like that the old-timers if you want their ability to just going to spit number. Fast is cuz they thought in in back row, but in a value less than $50,000 my projects that I was born in which order it's all would need this much NBA changing your time. And so they would say it's really like would you have time this week to give me

Speaker 2: 10 hours

Speaker 1: and I would just be another resource on the

Speaker 2: resource board for those things and some of obviously working all these projects ahead is downside but expanding that the bra Terraria Consulting what are some of the negatives of working Consulting that you might not think of her every other had the lookout for it if they're interested in that.

Speaker 1: The biggest one is the financials are right there. I liked it. I wasn't negative I'm saying it because I think a lot of people would think I didn't I actually liked it. But if you're going to do Consulting, especially in smaller group consulting you need to be aware that the financial part is going to be a part of your life for better or worse

Speaker 2: if there was any stress because your your salary in this case is based off of income from outside sources and not from yourself that there was ever any fear of if work slows downsizing might be sooner rather than you know, singing on the horizon

Speaker 1: that you get the small business mentality easier, you know, you get this idea of hey, there's people around me these people have families these people have Financial expectation that they need to satisfy and you are a big big and you are a big part of making sure that they're able to get their paycheck and I think that becomes part of the conversation and if part of the thought process for me for sure not so much I think maybe for other people in Organization that was a bigger thing as special as you go higher up. But yeah, I think you become more intimately aware that more quickly in a consulting company, which is smaller companies. Typically don't feel like a number and I feel like a lot more important. So I don't I don't know if that's part of that. That's it. It's just because my brother interactions with other routes groups, but they were just like internal customers. We were the most part for the most part small business within the bigger

Speaker 2: Roush. So you did three years before you left. So in in the last few minutes we have here bring us up to speed of what you're doing now,

Speaker 1: I guess while I worked at Roche. I was also still working on my PhD from a distance and my wife and I had another relationship just Direction decision to make she was finishing her residency, and we had to essentially decide what we want to stay in Detroit if we wanted to move somewhere. And I was another decision to be made similar to the one that we had to be made in 2016 and you know, we made that a similar way talk through it and you'll make compromises and figure out what we have to do an ultimately that let us to come back up to the keyboard on which is the northern tip of the Upper Peninsula Michigan for those who are not familiar and back to Michigan Technological University for me and to the hospital here for my wife. So now I'm back on campus as essentially a full-time PhD student in maybe more of its traditional role where your on-campus doing research. I still waiting on my classes Prix 2016 Premiere 2016. And so now I'm in with all the research only mode. So I take 9 credits a semester, but I just do research back working with my advisor. The cool part is is my advisors fantastic. And before I get too much into this PSG thing. I want to start out with this man, so much of your PhD experience will be about the quality of your adviser and the quality of your relationship to your advisor. And I cannot stress enough how that unfortunately is like one of the biggest criteria I think through whether or not you should get your PhD because having a poor advisor can make you miserable and it can really ruin you. I mean, I've I've heard crazy stories of idea of having a quality relationship with your advisor and having a mutual respect with each other about the expectations of how we're going to move forward for me. I've just had an excellent experience with that so much so that I wonder if my experience is a tip Yeah, I do want to talk with people people say like the PHD for them is just grueling hours and it's you know, most species Dunes make somewhere in the $30,000 range after it. So the question before and they make roughly $30,000 here that's rough guess as though it was typical fee she's doing but to do that their advisor is having their work 80 hours 12 hours a day pass at least 10 hours on the weekends to prepare things that I've heard and I don't know why my relationship with my advisor has has always been of mutual respect in that it's it's like going to work as much as I can and I'm going to do the best work that I can and I'm going to fail and we're going to learn from that and progressed forward. And that's mean that means that there's been times you know, where I am working only a few hours a week, especially when I was a distant species soon, and they'll be times when I'm up at 2 a.m. Emailing them because that's that's the time that I have. I have I have a daughter who was born in 2017. So I change things up a little bit and you night when I told him that you know, he's excited about it. Like you just another reaffirming moment. I was like eight OK another life obstacle coming in the picture but we still doing this you want to do this like long as we're still in both on board. Like here we go hold her advisor if they had a kid, they would probably fear. They probably figure that conversation cuz they would think the worst and for tonight. I didn't have to I'd never worry at all. I didn't I didn't worry at all and I told him out of excitement and you responded the same way. I would expect them really really fortunate to have that support network right visor as The Dictator by the advisor has the support network is part of the support team. It's making you accomplish these things. You know, that's that's my wife. That's my kid that he was my friend. That's my family and that's also my advisor and I think it's awesome. I think that's that's the thing. I'm really really fortune. And that's what makes me wonder if it's a typical. I mean, I think I think you can be really hard especially if you have different life constraints, you know, if you're an international student and you're coming here on a Visa that requires you to be in school. I think you can be scary. I don't have experience in that but I think that life is different than mine. And I don't know what it is, but I can appreciate it. That's a lot harder in the decisions are made differently. But yeah, I'm working on my Ph.D. You know, I have a plan to get to the finish of it that and I think my advisor and I are on the same page on and what you were going to just as we go but let's stick picture what's going on and what you'd like maybe to be a PhD student. I'm going to talk about it more specifically, but when I do though my PC work around a new speaker technology to all the Tyrone is listening right now, you're listening with a speaker that even if Earbud in your ear that makes sound by taking a little magnet and moving it back and forth and that it is a big batch of plate to that called the cone in that plate pushes air pushes and pulls are and that's what creates the sound that you hear all the moving coil loudspeaker speakers in an industry called loud speakers. So when I say loudspeaker, I just need to be here the idea was developed in the late 1800s. So it's not really a new idea. But since I do have you can make sound with heat same way that lightning make Thunder and the lightning bolt comes down. It heats the air next to the lightning bolt which causes the air to expand and that expansion of air pushes air. And so that's how you cook that sell funders made but it said idea if you can eat something or heat air and cool air quickly. You can make sound waves and tell them here. We have are called carbon nanotubes and essentially you can imagine just a tube-like a spaghetti noodle of carbon that we attach electrodes two on each side. We run current through it. It causes the arbynator Heat up cuz they are next to eat up and then we essentially heat cycle that on and off at Acoustic frequencies to make sound sound with you the first time 2007 and that really started off this idea. Maybe there's another way we can make sound like to think about it as if you have a toolbox and you want to make sound if you open that tool box right now. There's really only the movie quiet loud speaker. It's the only hammer in the toolbox to do anyting and so this is kind of a quiet day because it gives another tool for that tool box. So my Master's work was large and quantifying the efficiency of the speakers, which is further pretty inefficient compared to traditional speakers. My PhD work is on studying the sound quality of the speakers. And so it's some quality meaning subjective and objective and subjective data. You can say you have a vacuum. Can you measure the vacuum? You can say the sound pressure level of that vacuum is X it's one pascal of pressure. Is coming off a unit of pressure it makes one pascal pressure, but that doesn't necessarily give you an idea of how it might subjectively sound. Right? What if there's a high wine or like some grinding you may think that it's objectively sounds worse, even if the sound pressure level is lower or something. So you have to look at Acoustics as objective and subjective until this far. No one has really looked at Carbon nanotubes loudspeakers. It's only been objective sound pressure type metrics. So for my PhD, I'm going to conduct a jury study why people listen to the carbon nanotubes loudspeaker and quantify their addresses to give their subjective rating to the speaker for spoken text. I'm not going to do music. So, you know, you you working with a new technology has never been worked with before it's a lot of what you're doing is you're trying to design experiments to test a hypothesis. And so we have a hypothesis that say the carbon are too loud speakers are worst sounding than traditional can go in loudspeakers Force. Open text so then I need to design the experiment for that is so they experiment to best test is subjective better or worse is a jury study. So that's the tool of the test that I've chosen to use based on dining options in that I need to design and create that test. So I'm literally working with the university to conduct human subjects research, which is a part of doing research and University because I'm real halves human subjects coming to the lab to do this and then I'm designing the same for the sound samples that they're going to listen to and I'm also making the software that they can interact with to actually sit down and listen to samples and give their subjective opinion, but I need to think through technically that entire process and there are frequently times and research where you get to a point where there's not something in the back of the book that gives you the answer. Yeah, you know, I would like even with my hypothesis example, like there's a bunch of different types of jury studies that can be used to actually answer questions, but they all have pros and cons until you have to research a bunch of them and then pick the one that you think is best miso. You know about the Technology based on what you know about your hypothesis. There isn't in the back of the book If you're trying to do a jury study to compare the subjective sound quality of carbon nanotubes loudspeakers for the speech intelligibility. Use this equation is not bat in the back of the book. And so you have to research around you read a bunch of papers and things closely related to your to your question to come up with what you think is the best option and that's essentially what you try to defend when you're in when you write a paper you write a paper says hey, I did a new thing hears the background how I came to realize this is a problem. Here's the background and how I came to realize this is how I think to answer the problem and here's what I did specifically and here's the results I got to and all along you're going to get other researchers critical to every part of that like no I disagree with the fact that you used this type of jury study. Should I think it would have been more appropriate to use this thing, but you need to be ready for that. And so a lot of my time right now is Reading in preparing to create this jury city, which I hope to execute this coming spring and Set my timer reading papers making the samples that they're going to listen to working with the university to develop the center. What was that? Allow me to do from a human subject test in perspective and planning and preparation study how then execute to study. I'll be there. I'm not doing a double blind study or anything like that. I'll be the person executing the study which is again a design consideration. Why are you the one who's going to Proctor? The thing shouldn't you have someone else to do these are all reasonable questions, but I for my logistical reasons don't think it's relevant are needed. And so I made the decision not to even though I think it is a fair critique if you will, but you can't do everything you don't have time to do everything, you know, and if you if you took if you did if you need to add this you need at this you might never get done and that's failure in itself. So a big part of the PHD she is really managing scope while still being successful doing sufficiently enough to sufficiently test your hypothesis, but also not doing too much for you can't complete it and you never completed. So there's a balance I don't think it's very unique and divisors are play the critical role in that, you know, they're there their they're helping you answer whether or not you should do this. Should you do the extra two hours to do this should you do the extra 10,000 hours to do the acts? Like they're they're helping answer those questions. I think a good advisor does have it at least and yeah, so then once I get the results of that that'll be kind of how it all Progressive least at this point and I think PC Spoonful do that and no I'm just talking about one aspect of it. But sometimes it's your time if you maybe we'll be involved in on the research in terms of being an author or co-author of papers. That's my PC think. I also do other things. My advisor is predominately industry-sponsored. Can you get the most money from industry which I know is a typical. So he brings in a lot of Industry projects that he needs help on so I also in addition to my PSD work. I also help support him in those industry projects because we have a good relationship. Can you tell Penny knows that a detective would have to do to help move stuff like that? So there's a lot of different things going on even in my PhD life.

Speaker 2: Will I feel like we got the complete picture of you now from start to finish. I think trevallyn and amazing things that he does. So your last chance to wrap it up any advice you have for anyone listening to any PhD and be a try anything

Speaker 1: if you have answer to that thing to help you decide she should you work for a consulting company? Do you want to be intimately involved in financials? If you don't know where Brandon Jenkins all the company PhD if you have a good advisor in a good relationship with your advisor and hopefully general interest in what you working on.

Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing your story man and social listening out there. Hopefully you enjoyed this will be doing interview with me sometime sometime in the 2020 calendar. You're now the Run 2020 no promises on when you guys have any questions or comments for us. If you have any ideas for ways we can make the show better. Let us know. You can reach out to us. I'm bread at Bradenton rack.com and Troy can be found as

Speaker 1: Troy at Troy belmond.com. Also on our website podcast. Com website for each episode. Start chatting there. If you a question,

Speaker 2: we love to hear from you guys are doing is so so let us know if we can make better what we can improve upon and what we're doing good sound. Thanks in person. Happy new year. Thanks for listening this episode of engineer your career with Troy Bauman and Brennan Tamarac for more information about the show visit our website at byc podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with Troy and I if you or someone, you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey, I would like to be on the show go on the website send us a short bio and we made it to invite you to come out and share your story. And finally if you want to show your support, please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice.