Speaker 1: In this episode of engineer your career. We talked to Tony Hayes Tony the design mechanical engineer at Black & Veatch who works on water and wastewater treatment plant design. He has a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from the University of Oklahoma and a master's degree in mechanical engineering for Michigan Tech. Tony's also served as a Peace Corps volunteer in Peru has a Water Sanitation and hygiene specialist in our conversation. We talked about how communication plays a role in just about every part of a job until he shares Houck tivities outside of work and education can be a great place to learn practice our skills. Welcome Tony to EYC. Welcome everyone to another episode of engineer your career. I'm branded Tamarac and always join my tribe Allen

Speaker 3: on the flash.

Speaker 1: Now. We are not in person. It is it is recorded at the end of April. It is still stay at home in the state of Michigan and lots of other lots of other

Speaker 3: states uses podcast. Well, right because it's not in person on the ones and zeros in a

Speaker 2: half if I monks the ones in the zeros, I'm

Speaker 1: at any given point. You

Speaker 3: are a one or a zero, I guess that's what it is easier to take the macro view. You can't do it. Look at a single member you got to do. I'm actually a million. So tell me to get Brandon Brandon and Ice we know I'm from Michigan Tech days and stuff. But really glad that you're here man. And I was like dude, how are you doing?

Speaker 2: That's interesting time of the world right? Now. This is a week 6 or so of a stay-at-home order in a beautiful sunny, Kansas City, Missouri. So the work-from-home experiment continues and yeah, but otherwise things are good keeping busy with little bitty Hobbies put up in trellises in the garden yesterday and stay in 16 washing hands

Speaker 3: interesting time for side projects right for the people that like you have a weird amount of more time for side project. I don't know how you like it more time for side projects now

Speaker 2: I feel I feel that you do or I did and then we got Animal Crossing and then all

Speaker 1: of my side projects Justin hydrated

Speaker 2: Garden instead of tending my virtual my virtual apple orchard,

Speaker 3: but it could also just be more time to go into something that you look back on and wish you didn't spend

Speaker 1: more time. We have less efficiently. We use it. I feel like

Speaker 3: there is something about that right? There is something if you got like a huge to do this, you're so much more productive than it's because I feel like if I have a long to-do list when I start to get to the end of it like the last couple items I get so unproductive. I'm almost looking for things to not do besides my to do list

Speaker 2: will surely

Speaker 1: let us know in the comments of

Speaker 2: work expanding to the Thai. Time allotted for it. So it doesn't matter. Yeah. It did. It was just always take as long as you say it's going to take

Speaker 3: a lot of people staying at home working, but I really am exempt principal email address and you can have a brainstorming session outside.

Speaker 2: Roche what Roche what do you think of this email?

Speaker 3: Awesome great story of Tony. So how much Start us off with kennel walking through how you got through today?

Speaker 2: So I am from Oklahoma, you know, I was always interested in Science and Mathematics and had some educational opportunities in my small town that let me focus on those. So by the time I got to college I was in the engineering undecided major through the orientation classes and things that I settled in on on mechanical engineering which was described to me as the liberal arts of the mechanics of the engineering degree rather. I don't know if that's true, but I've been satisfied with it. After undergrad I had no idea what I wanted to do, but I felt some some will say personal longing to contribute to something other than myself which led me to find an opportunity to serve in the Peace Corps as well as pursue. My Master's Degree simultaneously in the now-defunct program called if he score Masters international program at Michigan Tech. So to summarize that was a year of mechanical engineering curriculum followed by two years of my service in the Peace Corps where I worked as a water and sanitation volunteer in Peru from their returns to Michigan Tech to conclude my studies and then I found myself having finished the short-term goal which was attended agree check that box and started the hidden Career Fairs and things and that was an adventurer not knowing exactly where you would end up or exactly what you want to do by myself in a similar state of broad optimism and also terrifying anxiety because you don't really know what you want to do so funnily enough. I found myself crashing on the couch with brand samrack if you were

Speaker 1: here. Yes for about a month as I was

Speaker 2: prepared to stop pursuing opportunities in Detroit where I got a call for a position that I hadn't actually applied to but I had gotten in the application ecosystem of a engineering consulting firm call Black & Veatch through some of the career for stuff that I've done where I did not get a position that I was applying for, but I was in the in the system and got a call to interview for a job as a mechanical engineer in water and sanitation where I find myself today. I will be some three years in July Jeff Beck it all up and moved out of Kansas City.

Speaker 3: Where did you undergo?

Speaker 2: I did my undergrad at the University of Oklahoma.

Speaker 3: Okay, so not Michigan Tech and actually a ways from Michigan Tech. So when you made the move from undergrad to Masters like you went to a cup Different state so he's like a little bit about that. Like how did you go about exploration of these masters programs in I guess, you know, that's it seems to me like someone who's the most are all my graduate school has been at the same University undergrad. It seems like quite the process to go somewhere else and completely different.

Speaker 2: That's that's as well. So, you know having College, I remember distinctly I was 7 an undergrad research assistant professor. And at the time I was on track to pursue at an accelerated master's degree at University of Oklahoma. There were some issues a fit and inches of interest that caused me to re-evaluate that so my undergraduate advisor who would have been my graduate advisor and I weren't really singing to make progress on the works at I had proposed to do with him. Where as part of my senior Capstone project was going rather smoothly with another professor and all I could come to the conclusion was it was just a matter of management interest. So so that time and I had decided to D decelerate my pursuit of my Master's at the University of Oklahoma and pursue kind of personal goals of like I said contributing to making the world a better place. Something's something that I felt would satisfy me more personally than academic pursuit of time. I had had a couple of friends to various different International work and because I grew up in a religious community a new number of people who have gone on Mission. So I was looking at okay. Well English teaching as an option. I spoke with some friends from high school who would talk English in China and in Korea South Korea that is and a connection from from undergrad on Donald Norris had actually done the fee for Masters international program in mechanical engineering at at Michigan Tech guy who died last week who graduated a year ahead of me. I called him up and had a few good conversations about the program the advisers. Yeah and reached out and I think probably had a brief phone interview with or more like an informational interview with one of one of the advisors Michelle Michelle Miller of the program at the time and yeah put in my application answer that I just yeah, we moved up stakes and Drove, I 35 North A Thousand Miles and found myself. Turn myself in the end in the

Speaker 1: Northwoods. Yeah, this is like this is the time. Where were you when I first met Tony like I was sitting I had been in the program I have started same time, but I'm like being in his office that I was assigned is like this guy named Tony or Robert or whatever his name. Is he supposed to be showing up and then like one day you will you show up walking in the lab and then kind of you know, our lives got intertwined for for a long time. And there we we talked briefly in a previous episode of our after-hours episode on what if I should a Masters or not about a little bit about what I did. I not too in-depth though. It's so can you give us a little bit of a rundown of the program you did and maybe how it's different than what people might consider a traditional master's degree in engineering

Speaker 2: sure so big picture for for 30 years to the Peace Corps, which is a program in the Department of State federal government had Constellation of relationships with United States do allow people to pursue degrees of Higher Learning in addition to filling service. There were several benefits that were touted by the program, but eventually I believe that would have been 2016 for reasons of a shift in direction of both of those. I believe Macadamia as well as the side of the Peace Corps that the relationship was this all the way that it would differ from the pursuit of a traditional graduate course of study was stressing particular a mechanical engineer is it was a rather interdisciplinary curriculum. Do you know we we took classes with people from civil engineering backgrounds varmints ones you nearing the ology in the pursuit of humanitarian engineering problems. That was that would differ from a traditional master's program in which you would you know, I guess I guess actually the similarity would be that whereas our emphasis was in humanitarian engineering. Another another Master's candidate might say they want to study piano sounds or Material Science or some subset of engineering problems. That might be there might be more academic and what's a trajectory towards even further study in

Speaker 1: Academia. It's so how then you go on campus for a year if you take some classes you going to Peace Corps. How did how did engineering flow into that then what were you doing that was still related to your degree while you're in these two years in through doing when water and sanitation.

Speaker 2: So I guess what I would say to that is during the recruitment process that was almost a direct question from from Washington as well. There was an opportunity that I was being considered for rent. You know, it's a rather. Okay can bureaucratic process where eventually replace an officer in Washington said hey, do you want to do something that's a little more on the Hands-On engineering side and Latin America or do you want to do something that's going to strictly be education in sub-Saharan Africa and I decided to pursue as I had when I elected to attend Michigan Tech in the first place. I thought you know, it's been all this time on an engineering degree. I want to explore to its fullest what what in what engineering can mean I'll be attending an unconventional setting in Manor showing in Peru. I was a water and sanitation volunteer, which we don't have to get into the details of what that what that program means, but I spent a lot of time with a voluntary committees in a river Village who were interacting with the built environment prior to my arrival there. There's been a massive. Spending effort from the Peruvian government to invest in water infrastructure throughout the country, but some 20 years on many of these systems found themselves in the air and some part of my role was to perform inspections with with my local counterparts to see what things could be addressed with minimal intervention locally and you apply for funding from the from the federal government under an incentive program to rehabilitate some of this water infrastructure. That was my direct work as a volunteer. My work with Michigan Tech and what eventually formed the basis of my of my report it was. was more about human centered design that was a major part of our curriculum emphasizing, you know humanitarian engineering community involvement in the design process and identified in problems in the community that In Northern Peru quinoa was last seen Wanda the fun happy superfood that we're all familiar with that. You know, you

Speaker 1: made the Hipster food of the day or at least that was at the like 5 years ago.

Speaker 2: So quinoa quinoa was being promoted by the Peruvian government as a as a new cash crop and trying to extend its growth range further from the the traditional the traditional girlfriend, which is in the southern central part of Peru in Seymour Northern parts of Peru. There's some difficulties with that for men. From an agricultural perspectives finding the right thing right cultivar is that are adapted to a warmer weather more tropical climate is the one that I was we were on the west side of the Andes but another impediments with wide adoption is a fact that it is hard to grow and to produce to a quality that is acceptable to be sold in the market. There are extensive post-harvest steps and then that involve, you know cutting and assisting threshing and winnowing scrubbing for some varieties of quinoa that has been have a germ like all your volume by Tri-City find a store has been scratched mechanical mechanical scrubbed that's a similar process has to happen and quinoa and end in poor River Peru a lot of that labor skilled in my hand so hard I did was look at some solutions that have been deployed in parts of the rice growing worlds and likewise some solutions that have been developed for for millet production and in parts of Africa. It is a staple crop and applied some of those lessons learned about mechanization to make a pedal-powered threshing machine that set for 4 a.m. On Co-op my town so that was probably more. More akin to the product development Community like participative Community design that I learned in school and I would say that what I've been doing with my work with black & Veatch is more or less as a direct stuff from my primary to score duties in the water and sanitation sector.

Speaker 1: I want a video of it. I didn't see in person. But I mean you're essentially it taking something is done by hand like beating stocks of quinoa on a rock or something similar. I'm guessing or in some fashion. And yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can play like mechanized it. It's it's like a simple and elegant in a really great solution. And I think that's a great application of you didn't know anything about maybe grain harvesting beforehand, but you had the skill set from undergrad from the year of grad school to be like I can go out. I can find a similar Solutions in adapted to the needs year.

Speaker 2: Sure. I know yeah, yeah. And I mean part of it part of it is research part of it is actually knowing how to perform research itself. I think that the experience of one of the courses that we took that was you know, I forget what was the name of Courage class Brennan engineering and low

Speaker 1: engineering redeveloping communities

Speaker 2: on some topic of Interest with us and mine was human power. I was fascinated with human powered vehicles and undergrad as fascinated with pedal powered machinery and in graduate school, and it just so happened that there was a problem that has been solved with you and power that presented itself to me and in my proven community. So a lot of reading about, you know, not just those design challenges but understanding the the body of text that surrounds appropriate technology near reading reading Publications from the organization of the United Nations, and it was a really satisfying holistic approach to do a problem that has an engineering

Speaker 3: solution. I think that something is Engineers. We really struggle with especially important in the underground mines that like because you don't get exposed to academic papers and in like doing a lot of reading like that. I don't think you realize the value of a coffin to be like, oh, I have a problem. I'm going to come up with the solution and it's going to be the best solution and I think in grad school you start to reform that is like a I have a problem. Let me see what everyone else is done then. Let me see if I can improve it because there's so many people doing stuff. Like I'm sorry if it was something like if you're going to build something the first time it's not going to be as good as if you can build off at other people have done it. So there is a value to the literature review process, which everyone dread they think I like living with you all your research and it could have been done before light

Speaker 2: novel enough right, but but On the other hand you you have too much of engineering is incremental, you know, we didn't the old saying Rome wasn't built in a day when neither were, you know, some fundamental elements of modern engineering and

Speaker 3: testing if you don't ask me to be Scrappy when you are listening to me like well, okay, he's always got this problem with stick, but he's going to recognize it. But in my eyes like one of the smaller parts of the problem at hand because you also have communication and cultural expectations in like you're trying to design something which you okay, you're kind of comfortable with and it totally foreign unknown space in a language. That's not your own language. Like I think that that has got to be one of the hardest element of actually doing something. I'm curious as to you like your thoughts on. Communication in the challenge represented

Speaker 2: it was it is a struggle for sure and you know my my Spanish improved greatly but nevertheless I I I hear what you say about expectations. And I think that was that was a part that I almost still kick myself over in a way was not learning how to manage expectations well and likewise I do not want to say I'm the one of the conclusions from the paper that I wrote on. This was the solution that I can birds upon with probably not the ideal solution for this application. Because of at the time what I could get through my contacts with the Peace Corps where bicycle parts but that was not something that I could get easily within my commute. And if I had to do it all over again, I would have pursued something different if I if I had pursued it which which I think is an important part of that learning process. Not only are you trying to do design something for a new context, but you may make some mistakes along the way and if there were several things that I would have done differently if I could have

Speaker 3: but that carries over to Blacken Beach now to you know, if you can take that problem and an LG and bring it into the workplace now, it's like you got to solve a problem if I can Beach, but you only have these tools at your disposal like their design constraints. I mean if you want to think about him, right so you can design in a bicycle on your design, but if you don't have access to a bicycle, you can't build it so example of learning to deal with You probably still using and leveraging from 2 today.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Sure. So black and teaches a is a large employee-owned engineering consulting firm that has many different divisions. I think it's bread and butter has been power generation 4 for a long time but a big part of his portfolio is is in the Municipal Water sector, which is where I found myself as a mechanical engineer in water. So to set back a little bit we mostly pursue just the design part of what could be considered a traditional design-bid-build process. I'm not sure how familiar your listeners might be with this or that I should explain. So the design-bid-build process of within the construction sphere and I'll tell you the first time I ever heard this term was during a career fair and I had no idea what it meant. And now I know somebody who's out there listening in school. Now, you will know so a municipality in the water sector. We largely work with municipalities your large cities your your smaller towns throughout this great nation. They have a chunk of money that might be in was called like a capital Improvement fund and they have a problem. They have deteriorated infrastructure. They have population growth. They have new areas of the city that will need Sewer Service. Whatever happened to be. They will say hey, we got a problem and they will put out what's called a request-for-proposals an RFP just a engineering consulting firms Engine Services firms. Please put together a solution for this give us some kind of ballpark figure what it would cost and then day so like that term Time to the pursuit of design phase. So black and Beechwood in my role will be the designer of a project which could take anywhere from a few months to do several years depending on the size and scope of the project after which it is bundled up and hand it off in What's called the the bid part. So he's done design that we're going to do the best part. This is where contractors step in and say, oh black and eat you put together all these Lego instructions for how to build this pristine beautiful water or wastewater treatment plant. It's going to cost money and depending on the conditions of the contractor the confidence of the bid their relationship with the city itself. Who is the client in for a contractor is awarded the contract to build. So that is your design-bid-build. So the building of said plan Could take place, you know also over the course of several years of putting on the side and scope. And often Black & Veatch is contracted to perform what's called on construction phase services in which will perform some amount of oversight over the contract to ensure that is being built in the way that we intended to operate them into have some Fidelity of design and assurance that the things are going to go smoothly. The way that I fit into this is I am down in the details during design the mechanical engineering group that I'm part is that I'm part of we have liked your talk about we have all the design constraints somebody in an earlier part of the project has decided that this is the technology we want to pursue. This is the this is the layout of the pump station. This is the the the this is the site that we have in mind for this and the mechanical engineer will say okay if you need you know, if you need 700 standard cubic feet per minute of hot air to travel through this pipe into this Basin so that it can provide life-giving oxygen to some microbes that are going to eat you no human waste. I got to go talk to a an application engineer representing the OEM to to figure out if their equipment and is going to work in this application. So we might speak to three or four vendors of of of a piece of equipment and say hey when you know, we need this pressure. We need to slow. Can you get it to us and was going to cost then we will you know, you can go to the process can go number of ways, but eventually those those vendors who we expect to be able to provide that might be named in a specification that is to say when a contractor goes to put together his bid he would select from that list someone that they believe can supply that system. So multiply that by five different subsystem. So you have any racing design or a pumping design or chemical feed pumps conveyors incinerators aeration application to be high pressure to be low pressure. I've been working on a project right now that's involving high-pressure compressed natural gas, you know landfill gas capture incineration. Yeah kind of anything that needs to convey air or water or a water like substance that may have left. The toilet will will will get it to

Speaker 3: plant. So it sounds like I mean like me to start a huge company and so these are Big teams and so can you like maybe walk me up the technical app? So you sit within a team that's on a subsystem like and how many people are on that? I don't like that goes up to can you kind of like walking through maybe that the layers of this organization that urine?

Speaker 2: Sure. Maybe it's none the largest project that I'm working on today. So a small project might consist of me the junior engineer and then a senior engineer above me and kind of giving guidance and advice and saying hey, this is the next step that we need to do to validate this design and likewise. I would also, you know about it in any calculations or some shins set those in part of a quality control aspects of small study that I might be doing. We would be investigating some smaller problem that is specifically mechanical in nature. This is something that we know they know they didn't need to mechanical engineers to do and We are working for a regional office is ask for help on this work. I'm black and he's as you say the large is a large organization. There are six hundreds of offices worldwide many of the United States, but also Europe South America, Australia Southeast Asia. And they all serve a portfolio clients so many of the client that I work for and this small example could be on the east coast to West Coast could be in South America depending on depending on the needs. So the my work products are than for the for the delivery of a package to a client in a in a regional office. So that's that's a very short chain. That's a very short chain. Now if I'm if I'm on a larger project someone that might be in a few years or yeah, my survey a large city. The mechanical engineering team my might consist of 46 Engineers each inside of a subsystem. Like you guys are going to be the punting team. You guys are going to be the aeration team you guys are going to be the Odor Control team. That's only the mechanical part of it at the same time. We have to interface with similar disciplines. So I think of the delivery of my work product, I need to share information with that for instance equipment weights if I know how much a piece of equipment is on the way. I need to pass that off to a structural engineer so they can design a 9in equipment pad. They also need to know the dimensions to hand it off to the drafting team to develop the drawings or develop to develop 3D models of this to deliver to the client that is damaged by a civil team. Who knows the site plan in this life is the site layout instrumentation can I need to know what inputs and outputs need to be reflected in the the piping and instrument diagrams. The European ideas. We call them so they need to know that just needs to turn off this way and when to be able to write a system of instructions so they can be integrated to work smoothly. So every every piece of what we work on. It is part of a larger part and sorry, I forgot the electrical cuz the people live and work in these things. We have to have lighting that needs code. We have to have ventilation the needs code. We have to have Plumbing that he's code architect known a lot of that work. So so a large wastewater treatment plant is going to cover many any engineering disciplines that are working in hand and when we work in tandem more often, we often have struck. Collaborative calls this indicate in before this this this work-from-home Madness. I was out of the custom to having calls with upwards of fifteen people describing the coordination effort that went with that. We need to to make to the continue in the process of

Speaker 3: design got you. So and you're tight on the person who is reviewing things and then like maybe your boss is Tyler just two people get familiar if they want to like look up the sex of jobs

Speaker 2: smaller firms in larger firms. My official title is mechanical engineer to and when I started I was a mechanical engineer one of the expectations as bad as to B&O perform small small analyses. You're by no means a a master but other major subsist I'm but someone who would review my work could be as high as a engineer 7 or an engineer in as low as an engineer 3 someone who's who has much more experience than me or more experience with me and then me and them maybe also holds their professional engineering licensure as mechanical engineers. That's not always expected many of us have was called industrial exemption if you work day for Brennan you work for you know, GM, I think that's pretty small expectation for you to get your professional licensure. Is that Greg?

Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know how anybody has it.

Speaker 2: Rave til when you're working in the for the built environment for being a floor that deals with anything with heavy construction or dad the public is going to engage with highly encouraged that you get a professional license. So my work in the official channel of quality control has always been viewed by somebody blister PE eventually, maybe even sign and stamp my work products.

Speaker 3: Yeah, and if those are listening we did have changed Buckingham episode 1. He's a civil engineer who talked up from the Civil side about getting your PE and signing and stamping and things like that. So interesting to hear kind of this this mechanical engineering side compared to the Civil side, but if you're interested in learning more from the Civil side, listen episode 1, but that's if it's really interesting. Yeah, you were going to say I have to take it and it is a big confusion when you're an undergrad and people aren't like looking to sign up for the the the exam is like should I do that? Should I pay $250 or whatever it is now to take it and I think it's especially confusing for mechanical engineers whether or not they should do it. It seems more straightforward for civils, but it sounds like it sounds like even for you Tony it's not something that you think he is a requirement unless you're going to sign and Sam.

Speaker 2: Let me get let me clarify my statements old and also said some light with my personal anecdote my personal experience, but I did not get I did not take the Fe exam after undergrad ordering undergrad and a number of my colleagues Black & Veatch hadn't either and we have as a rule kicked ourselves over it because it's really hard to relearn at stuff and Within my working and I apologize if I wasn't clear at my expected locations associated with my title right now. It's not expected that I have a PE but there is a ceiling on advancement was in our organization without it because even if you're not even if you're not signing in stealing things yourself for you know for a tea rinse to Quality quality control guidelines that I'm not by no means an expert in the expectation is that to review the work of the junior engineer that will eventually be signed and sealed and needs to have been examined and gone to a QC process by someone who has a p so I don't have that but I am pursuing the preparing for the test for this year.

Speaker 3: So broadly you say like if you're in the municipal design space even as a mechanical engineer, you should be thinking be

Speaker 2: exactly and for exactly the reasons you say, you know, a lot of schools will provide subsidies or some kind of incentive for for a young whippersnapper undergrad to take that test by all means if your school does that go for it and I likewise Black & Veatch has a bonus program. So if you get your PE, there's a bonus associated with it. So that's that's something to keep in mind to especially for a lot of the the professional development things, you know, your extracurriculars like learning some of the Safety Code or the Boiler code or some obscure pipes dress code, you know there you might look at the programs that your that your employer has for carrying the cost of some of those things especially if Promises some kind of advancement for you and and it's an indefinite for them

Speaker 1: before you even get to the pedo. You'll just have to like learn a lot about your position than for you you're working on you be working on one of many different types of mechanical systems. What was it like coming into your role when you started and having to learn a lot of new things like we all do we start a new role? How did that how did that turn out for you? And it was a process. Was there any sort of formal training you had or was all just here's the project. You're like a mentor learn as you go.

Speaker 2: It's so funny. If my first major product that I was on with a pump station and the first major work products that I was developing was a system curve and learning how to read a pump curve is something that I learned an undergrad in three or four years. So I you know, I Is that was literally pulling out college textbooks and Elementary resources. What's the what's the old adage? Google is your friend? It is a combination of formalized processes because black and has over 100 Years of design and construction experience. It has a deep bench in a deep library of resources to be able to either teach yourself or honestly is either a standard practices or work instructions that say if you're going to pursue design of this system, these are the things that you need to consider. So that's definitely part of it. But likewise, I I work with individuals who you are. I know who are on a semi committees who you know hydraulic Institute standards for punks who know the testing procedure or helping write the testing procedure for A low-pressure compressors there is a certain degree of mentorship and it's also a certain degree of self-education as well. The nice thing about the nice thing about a comprehensive mechanical engineering degree is while you may not use everything somehow the school they found a way to cram in at least a cursory introduction to just about every element to mechanical engineering there is so I don't feel like to point out partially partially referring back to the the PE exam is that actually for mechanical engineers has broken in the subsystems are broken into sub-disciplines. There is a specific there's a specific exam for mechanical components. There's a specific exam for heating and ventilation and a specific exam for Thermo fluids. So even when I pursue my PE my my intent is because of my exposure Experience and what I've learned from working on these things over the last, you know three years or so is to pursue thermal fluid systems. It's the same as most applicable to me like working on pumps working on the exchangers that going to say and it's also a thing to point out from from speaking to my supervisor about this as a kind of an intermediate career goal is that it is just the beginning, you know, the dumbest a crossing of the bar for for an engineer in the field that I find myself in but the Mastery of the principles is something that takes years and years and no two systems is like very early in my career. I buy Perry short career my first year there I was designing a vacuum system for priming a pump. Which is so pumps pump can't move water. Right? Like there's a centrifugal pump can't pull water up. It's it's a thing that that exists. So but sometimes a pump might be located above the water that it needs to pump and you would need to Prime that a way to perform that is to use a vacuum pump a liquid ring vacuum pump that draws water into the body of the of the centrifugal water pump tube to be able to get the the system going and then from there, you know, what kind of takes care of itself but those are designed very often, right? So I was designing 1 as a as a 3 to 6-month engineer under the guidance of a senior engineer Vineland like 15 years ago cuz it just doesn't come up because the best practices we don't want to put pumps higher than the water. They see the pump, but sometimes you got to I'm throwing myself and myself handling bad problem with is is odd even by career Professional Standards. That's an odd system. Yeah, who do that? Yeah, I don't know but we got to fix it now. Okay. Well now tell me the expert.

Speaker 3: Let's be still like the idea of when you're an undergrad. Don't feel like going to be a sponge and not only learn how to learn but also try to try to remember kind of these couriers, I guess where I'm going to go with you. If you were to talk to yourself back and undergrad now that you kind of learn some of these life lessons like would there be some things that you just want to kind of kind of highlight? I mean you've already talked about this idea PE like you probably high like that to yourself like a take the PE while you remember it was you that you would have gone into Municipal but I are there other things that you think that you would want to tell young Robert Hayes.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I I think that young young Robert Anthony Hayes. I think that pursuing a project with a professor would be a fun thing to do early on it something I tried to do in there was a good fit on it. But I think that the sentiment was correct that part of part of the way to learn part of the way to learn engineering is to do engineering and outside, of course work if if your timeline affords it if you are it's your schedule affords it join a join a competition in concrete. Canoe do do, you know Formula SAE or any of the other mini Baja vehicle? There are valuable team working and Engineering skills that are that are in those things that are They're still important I think to to a career in engineering. That's the hard skills. And that's also the the the soft skills of working with the team the hard skill. This is what engineering looks like if I had to go back and talk to you young Robert Anthony Haynes. I would tell him to try and get that internship. I did not think that I had the time or the bandwidth of the ability to pursue an internship when I was in school and having where to buy candied. I'm seeing young interns come in that are that are sophomores Juniors to don't know what they're doing yet, right they don't because they were because they haven't had that but when they're coming back your journey over the summer to remember the winner to the journey of the next summer, they're saying yeah. I know. This was really great to know how to learn how to read a pump curve before. I took Hydraulics to know how to You know, it's to know the purpose of a control valve before I have controls that even though you know, you're not really following along in the book and you're stumbling along the way it's it's not necessary about Mastery so much is exposure. And that exposure is helping you acquire that much faster by the time you see in a in a controlled environment.

Speaker 1: I think it's a really good point is that we tend to think that like learning informs experience and ability. But like you're saying experience can also inform learning if you can be mentally like Prime know I seen this before I didn't fully understand it. At least I've seen it now I can do it. It's kind of like now if I have like learn something however long ago it was 10 years or whatever. I an undergrad to be like, okay now if I have to go back and relearn it, I only saw it once and I can learn to again or just having that exposure to it or seeing things my work now being like that like,

Speaker 2: I never learned this in school, but I have an idea but

Speaker 1: now I can go back and look at textbook. Okay pieces together. That's really good point that we tend to think of it. Like I didn't I didn't internship until after my first senior year of college. So I was almost in the same boat and I was like, I should probably probably get on this and I think it also helps you like understand working for a company and what that's like like you're saying going on those teams at school can help you learn some of those interpersonal and soft skills. So what is what are some of the main Southfield that you see is being really important in

Speaker 2: your job? Oh man, it's it's almost the beating dead horse at this point. I think said most most Engineers recognize that communication is the Cornerstone of the functioning engineer. I know the people struggle with it and I forget there's a playwright to I sing said and I'm going to butcher this and you could cut out this this quote if I butchered too bad, but the problem was get to the commute with communication is the illusion that's been achieved. That's even if you think you're a good communicator, you can say a lot say a little, you know, I'm in my work a lot of Denver email. Sometimes we're dealing with people in multiple time zones and It's it's it's essential that you remain open to the idea that what might seem like criticism or hostility in written communication as actually probably just an engineer speaking matter-of-factly. I think we're all kind of kind of guilty of then and having those phone calls is important ever call a recent conflict that I I said conflict is just a little bit of friction kind of in this in this work from home space where because I've been busy on other work. I kept needing to put off in a little bit regretfully push off some work that needed to be delivered to another co-worker likes, you know, you have one hot projects and I'm working on as many as separate projects given week You know, you have a hot deadline on one and you think well, I'll get to you at the end of the week and you haven't reached out to your supervisor to find out that they're actually struggling under their workload because they're also working on seven different projects in a medium or a more aggressive timeline or just more aggressive requirements be a lot of people who wear a lot of hats. So, I think that the way that is solved for me was we Kind of touched base with each other at first but strangely through a mutual Mutual he respected third-party. He was like, hey, did you know that they're struggling with this? Honestly really spoken to me they're struggling with this. Well, I'm struggling with this and eventually would have settled into with a call in which we got together and have no set up regular check-ins on. Hey, I understand you're busy know that I'm busy to let's let's let's figure out how to divide this workload and keep a running record of who's in charge of what on OneNote on teams on any of these other collaborative to figure out you know, what's on who's played by when so that that sell time management? You can beat yourself up Til Kingdom Come about your ear your own self discipline in your own time management, but when were working on teams, sometimes we have to be there for each other. That's just the fact of it. So that's that's been important to me.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I know. I think that it brings up a whole realm of can you be like to be talked a little bit much all ready for those listening about this idea of like if you have to solve a problem and get you an answer then you need to be able to communicate that to people like if you figure out how to design the pump system design it once you have solved the type of probably need to communicate it but Tony you're bringing in a whole new realm of communication that we haven't talked about that is so critically important and it's this idea of when you work you're going to have a bunch of bunch of stuff going on in at any given point. It's the biggest fire under you that's what you're going to work on. But what sets that fire priority, what does is it? Just you internally know in a good team is communication with all the stakeholders to evaluate it so that everyone knows how to prioritize and set the fire under them and that involves Communication in that involves discussion so that you can make an appropriate decision on what you're going to work on and that is communication. My photos look like that's like that's why you need to be in effect. Communicator about why your project needs priority or being understanding when something else comes up higher priority like you need to be able to also just communicate schedule and communicate priority and it has nothing to do with what you're going to learn in undergrad or grad school. And that's just like I mean may be sent to some extent about like wow, this is a higher priority because technically it's going to be harder and take more time like sometimes those things come into play. What is also just resource management and I used to get especially when I was younger. I used to get like really frustrated with meetings and I can I think I can give her I get that but I think that's just how the system has gone to to try to help communicate and prioritizes like well, we need people to communicate so it's at least try to get them on a zoom call or get him in the room together and that that's at least a start and I think probably most people can agree that that's not a great solution, but we don't we don't have anything better intro but being a good communicator and having empathy to the situation helps you realize that That's just what they're trying to do. Like when people are having meetings. Like they're just trying to get people together to communicate to help set priority. And that's that's just in communication part of the technical engineering side, but that's going to be a big part of your life as an engineer. And so I don't drive you still got a great example of that for you. And

Speaker 2: now I just precisely the point in everybody rolls her eyes, especially if you know, I've worked on big projects where the structure of a meeting, you know, you have good ones and bad ones and good product managers and Dad project managers or or or project manager to her. Let's say they're they're strong in different area is not bad brothers, you know, they're doing stuff that I can't do well. But yeah, it is an example of a even meeting that can be frustrating as one that says civil engineers any updates. Okay. Let's go Engineers any updates. When does the best engineering managers that I've worked with star pointing out? This is a this is a decision point that we need to make with a client. Just everybody have as everybody contributed to the material that's necessary. And what's the next step? Kind of thinking about that priority and from a practical thing for what's worse with me and it took me and it took me awhile. When I when I first started I had a good buddy who is a later transferred into another office, but he would see how anxious and I tend to be nicest person that is a fact that no one would dispute he he would tell me don't let it get to you don't listen to the last job gets you I'm probably my first 6 months. I really love the job get to me and we've been having kind of a mini version of that as we've been adjusting to the work from home era but a rubric that I kind of set up to remind myself about priorities and how to keep the ball rolling is to say External stakeholders email them first internal stakeholders of the next are the next step that needs to be dealt with as far as getting a communication item going and then I can work on what I call Dick work in a work work products that I deliver because it's funny. You may push off that 50 minute email but that 15 minute email might be the difference between a vendor getting information to you 2 days from now or next week and that can slow somebody else down. So for me, it's been useful to keep in mind not just not just what is the not as the easy thing to knock out or the what do I feel like working on the what's the what's the what's the Domino's that's going to that's going to fall that makes everybody else's life easier before I get to my own and sometimes it stinks and you got to turn on do not disturb on teams and say no actually I do need these next four hours to go over these documents and dips, but I found that to be a practical way for me to keep in mind that if information if information needs to keep slowing the easiest way to do that is reach out to you startled contacts first internal contacts next and then focus on my big projects, That's just the tip from Tony.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. I think that mean anyone any project manager anyone to manufacturing and can also a test this idea of like you you got to constantly monitor the the domino effect 2 terms for it, but it sent you this idea of what are what are your long-lead items? What do you need to take care of now so that they can continue to follow the timeline that you need to cuz things cuz it's nothing like you think like things happened fast and some things don't like especially in component stuffed only like I bet experience is worth like, okay. Well, I need to get a pump. Okay. Well, how about a 4-month sleep time? You know, so if you want it, do you want it for months from now? I probably should get me a PO today to get a PO. So looks like we're probably in the next quarter next year. If you're going to want any of these things can happen and so like there's nothing to do with learning pressures and volumes in. Mechanical engineering class nothing knowing that you don't learn that at all. Like that's a that's a real life work failure that has to happen for you to learn unfortunately or a mentor above you saying. Hey Tony check into that pump right now because you're going to realize you need to get that done right now. I think that there's just a lot of their butt

Speaker 2: and also the works that I The Works that I designed doesn't get built by me that's almost opaque to me in a way

Speaker 3: that have a chance of not even like, how are the construction company siding hook for these things

Speaker 2: happen like their there's work stories about a $10,000 hole. That would have been one hour of work. They got missed throughout design until sometime. Check the points out and says that's change order, you know, but it but it's interesting to hear your perspective from the from the from the components. I couldn't because of course, I don't I don't work in manufacturing, right? We will you put designs on paper that might get Bill five years from now or even shelves for 20 years and then becomes the the fodder for someone else's before it. But but that's definitely something inside. I don't know. I mean we talked about how conversational this is the friends you have any anything to add to that like, what's your experience at GM with? stacked priorities and

Speaker 1: timelines I think it's it's a little bit different than what you guys because I work on like one project over the course of its lifetime and Beyond and so we do have we do have different priorities to work on depending on word for program. So sometimes I juggle a different vehicle program at the different stages of being released. And so it's understanding you know, what is the priority on this one was the Freddy on that one? And then also it's it is not quite like, you know. Like what you guys are saying was thinking long-term out in terms of how long it's going to take to get rid of your order or prepare but it is how long is it going to take me to do this work? How long to fast to someone else expect it to get done and where can we get to a point of understanding on that? We're going through some of that right. Now, you have different stakeholders and it to her coming down from different places of looking at the same problem. Some people are like we need this now answer the boy like that might not be the right thing. We might need to wait if we wanted it like releasing a product and so I can be sometimes at the bottom of that waiting for people to make decisions so that I can go forward and finish something off to then meet a deadline that we have when we're supposed to release something to production to go out to me a different kind of some of that fax things of if I'm waiting for someone to do something then I have to be a prepared as I can to do my work once I've got to go ahead and information from them and then we said someone else and then it goes downtown to

Speaker 3: chain. I thought unication I just didn't realize that ever lived his life and how he figured out what he's doing that's all appropriate communication of a bunch of levels and so people aren't communicating well like it just totally throws everything off in like as an engineer like maybe you hate to acknowledge that but if you don't acknowledge that like you're just going to cause problems for yourself all of everyone's success of the organization has to do with communication and so if you feel like you're spending a lot of time communicating probably because that's just what has to happen the other thing I would like to see more of the test face or like later on in the product development cycle interesting for you man it's probably a lot of just like resource timing like hey I need to do the test but the cold chamber isn't available for a month so can't do it for a month thank you notes different than like I need to design and build a pump that I can't get for 4 months but it's like I can't test and complete verification because I'm lacking a resource with it be labor or whatever

Speaker 1: exactly it could be waiting for I need someone to have a software fix done that then is released on a software patch that I have to go into a store its way from test facility it's waiting for a ride vehicle yeah like said it could be a lot of things when you're further down at end of further down you go the the higher I guess the further down you go the more you are affected by decisions higher-ups like Tony you're a little bit you're a little bit higher in the chain that you're not into still in the build phase of it you kind of the design phase of it so like like you kind of said if you're delayed on anything on your end that could do anything further down than that depending on where you're working nights me up in 1 hour and how it all have it all wrote down to

Speaker 2: experience a very teams but you're talking about being at the end of the line on a lot of the work that that I do There is there can be conflicts from a from a budget and schedule perspectives because one of the benefits of the work that I do is that is pretty much engaged with the process of the projects from start to finish Z. The selection of major equipment isn't formed by the sights and the technology and the the the the scope of the of the of The Rehabilitation and new construction or what-have-you the mechanical portion of the teres throughout the duration of the project from pretty early on but other disciplines don't get engaged until maybe the design of the project is is 2/3 of the way done and what's happened on problem projects is because of a number of different issues that that can come up unexpected changes and approach reluctance by the client to consider the impact of a design change client preferences.

Speaker 1: Newly discovered

Speaker 2: information about regulatory information something like that. And then what happens at the end somebody at the end of the line is now left with insufficient budgets to perform the work that they need to perform where you know, the the the electrical engineers have a certain number of labor hours or equivalent labor hours that they would need to produce their drawings and and make those changes and and what have you and doing work twice as always expensive. So yeah, so it's it's often the case or more specific to the work that I do what will happen. Is that someone misunderstood the requirements of the problem and maybe it took it upon themselves to design something other than qualified to design and then when you do not clean up work what you're left with is The Leftovers of Did budget that was budgeted for that item and then so you're left with a fraction of the you know, 100% to 200% of the level of effort. But with a fraction of the budget is always fun. Yep.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I'll make mistakes like for the exam 100% meaning they do the a stop at 100% is probably zero, maybe maybe not. You know what like it's really small like people make mistakes. Even if they're studying the material like that still happens when you get into work people are still hopefully shooting higher if they're in a type of area but that you know, there's probably getting seventy 80% of it. Right like you're still make mistakes and that's just part of people and so you're going to be in work situations where people have made a mistake and you're trying to figure out what to do at situation when I will happen and how do you spell You use a skill? You don't learn undergrad which is communication. Absolutely even think it was first person the world and I'm going to say, okay. What what score's do you get you say while I get high 90s? Okay. Well tell me the time that you're going to fail in those situations. You need to be able to conduct yourself in a positive way and you need to do that through communication to solve the problems. Now that's a ridiculous extreme example average person who's going to screw up 20% of the time whatever get 80% at a given day like it now, it's a mental been. How do you how do you make better that than you communicate because you're going to get in spots where we don't have the technical ability to see what we want with the budget we have what's the situation? It's to communicate with the stakeholders and come to a decision as a team and how we're going to come forward that to

Speaker 2: recover the health of the Project's cuz you can't I mean it's if you need to say it is what it is, but at the end of the day The client has certain expectations. You need to you need to meet those even even in difficult circumstances. And that's not to say that there's not room for forgiveness even like I point out to the expertise of of people I work with it. It's my immediate supervisor who made the $10,000 hole myself. You know, that's a I think you're right that there is there should be some there has to be a level of forgiveness in an expectation of positive intense. And again, these are these are matters of character that one learns the hard way I think but they're they're cheap lesson to take when you know, the sooner you learn in the better.

Speaker 3: right that's why I think like that character aspect if you're applying for a job in or whatever you're trying to recruit like that's why people I think look for these communication and look for these like you wouldn't be said positive intent skills cuz the person sitting across is judging you on whether or not they're going to hire you or whatever give you a recommendation they're going to be your teammate and they want to know that when you screw up which is going to happen that you're you have positive time and that you can communicate well solve the problem and in the same way when I screw up I want people to be respectful of me in that situation know that I'm trying my best and to communicate weld me to come to an effective solution

Speaker 2: I'll tell you when I when I got hired on to the shop maybe about a year and after I've kind of gotten gotten my my my groove as far as maybe not with the work itself but definitely with the personalities involved so that I'm I'm an Apple guy Quick as a joke and a thing, but it was amusing to speak to my the one who hired me right from the phone interview basically and having been involved now and some of the the recruiting activities that we do for our interns. He's like, yeah. He had a good GPA but could you be a nerd I'ma Do you know a 3.9 doesn't really distinguish you when people are looking through stacks of engineering resumes, but he said you had a good fit for the organization because you know when you when you speak and when you interact with others, we know the values that yeah, and that's and I and I think that that's that's part of it is organizational fit and can you conduct yourself? Well in challenging circumstances, I mean circumstances aren't always challenging and on a on a well-oiled project a good one. They won't be challenging but things happen for people.

Speaker 1: So before I run of the time Tony, I know that you are also involved in some engineering activities outside of work with Engineers Without Borders, which kind of one of those things we can still be a professional organization, even though we sometimes if you're aware of it the associate with college groups. Can you tell us a little bit about what you been doing with them?

Speaker 2: I am active with the Kansas City professional chapter as you mention dwb icing for for younger listeners is most associated with with a campus activity, you know, you sent Engineers out to out to the woods to fix something. I don't know personally. I've been engaged with Engineers Without Borders and a couple of different initiatives. There's an ongoing project that we have in the Dominican Republic for the the installation of a well in a water distribution system. That's a multiple multiple disciplinary team. how's the network of individuals here who are engaged in engineering practice throughout the Metro we rotate on a monthly basis to other firms so every month a different firm is is hosting uwb and we have a little pizza party and break down the hey this is what we're going on this is the status of the DAR project this isn't status of the Guatemala project we are just kick starting a rainwater-harvesting application in Peru that's been done successfully by a couple other branches and I and I hope to be involved in the assessment trip for that you know that the Spanish language that I got Peace Corps has really helped me on that regard my ability to be engaged in this branched explicitly out of my ability to speak Spanish I have not really been engaged with Engineers Without Borders here professionally I just ended 1 meeting in college and kind of fell off fell in and fell off my radar But last year it became known to me that there was a need for a translator to go to as an assessment trip for some of the work that was going on in Dominican Republic. And so why I was able to go black and each other generous policy for compensating you for that time I can teach in full disclosure is a is a is a major contributor to Engineers Without Borders in the sad high-ranking individuals on that board. so they they want you to use your engineering scale stub to help people so yeah it's it's a good way to a network that I'm talking to people who work with some of our competitors in a congenial environment you know people who are who are like-minded in the pursuit of common in the common good it's a way to stay engaged in your local community Professional Engineers Without Borders chapter will probably also have local initiatives in which they can help there is a I think a project with a small-scale garden here for a local Urban agricultural group that is needed some help building an energy-efficient greenhouse and some irrigation equipment deserved civil engineers electrical engineers mechanical engineers do know who knows something about delivering even small-scale infrastructure Yes, I would say that that's a positive way to get back to your community so much in the in the crazy world of engineering there a lot of Demands on our time and if you have the luxury of extra time or or feel the need to carve out time in a in a way that engages and grows your skills your network and one of your heart, you know, it is that borders.

Speaker 1: North Austin be able to keep doing that and continue in that vein, but you're doing the Peace Corps use the skills you learn Network applying that and like we don't always think about engineering outside of work besides you by workers work on COD. They work on cars during the day they going to work on cars and it's kind of like that that for you but it actually has a meaningful impact Beyond just someone's Rodger Homer. That's why I sent you that.

Speaker 3: all right well I think that probably wraps up the time Tony really appreciate you coming on the show man really enjoyed your inside I think it's we talked about a lot of stuff besides which I think is also help I appreciate you allowing this opportunity to discuss the things as

Speaker 2: well. I always appreciate you know I thought about people who work on cars all the time I talk on people who work on before 2 in class all the time so it's nice to be able to know what other engineering disciplines look like other other avenues of of of degree which we happen to share so yeah thanks for thanks for having fun things different

Speaker 3: cycle human feces or a pumpkin to cycle coolant to cool the thousand horsepower engine

Speaker 2: States around lockers out

Speaker 3: water in your

Speaker 1: regular Pakistan.

Speaker 3: Talk to you later.

Speaker 1: I really like talking to Tony. He's he's obviously a good friend of mine. I've spent I spent a lot of time with him and it it's great really to hear more about his professional experience. So far since we parted ways

Speaker 3: set security man feel like when he joined the the zoom thing is named said Rah and all the garage he must think they were just making funny names. Give me that's awesome. But his name is Robert Anthony Hayes that kind of person. Are you see something like that? You like Auto is being a goofball. This is awesome.

Speaker 1: I taken in discussion. We just had he has a lot of different experiences outside of work in school. So he did he did the Peace Corps each other very unconventional path to get his master's degree. He does some stuff now what Engineers Without Borders outside of work a lot outside that really helps me know as soon as we talked about helps inform his work today and I think his advice about like if you're if you're in college still join the students Different experiences that way you're going to learn your lines soft feels like we talked about y'all some technical skills. I think that's really important because our our education or knowledge is more than the sum of what we just learned in classes if the sum of our experiences and how we can bring those into our work,

Speaker 3: you know, what you're working on pumps for your local project through some Angie or whatever and then you have to go and then design pumps at work like you're going to be better at both of those situations driving to work on both of them in its at school when you can have things you enjoy like build on each other right? It's always a day like I just do one single thing like that's okay, but if I can have things that actually build on each other yet the sound becomes greater than the individual Parts in that can be true for your knowledge to which is cool. One thing that there's no shortage of discussion out in the sun with communication again, another I guess theme of the podcast is communication and if you think it's Incredibly important. I think Tony brought some great examples of that and how it how it works with his life. And I love that. He talked about problems in like how he use Communication in problem, but he had his coworker something I thought was maybe of sap it ended up being just as communication issue and that all happened. It's so real life, you know email is a synchronous and has a lot of positives but there's some really really negative, Communications are the email and how it's really easy to think someone's mad at you or someone upset and really I already said what's up with the idea of like just being an engineer that person is just being here when they're like the baby just speaking facts and I just think it's another continuing for an emphasis on communication, which is so hard like like well, they're really what do you do with that right after someone sitting there someone says hey you need to learn how to communicate better do you look at them what do I do with that like that I don't know how do I do that I don't know the answer to that first of all I can tell you is that when I talk to people and we talked about real life and how the world works like communication is a big part of it and so I feel bad I feel like I'm telling you about the world there's a problem but I don't have a great solution and part of it is maybe taking communication types of classes it's learning how to write an email and use commas appropriately so that your words and your sentences can come across appropriately but it's also linked learning body languages and learning that when someone's doing this thing that probably better actually upset at you or you know I don't do not play book for that I mean there's no I tried to write them but

Speaker 1: I totally agree I think a lot of it is looking at situations you're in and seeing where communication was good or bad I've been in meetings where someone called into a meeting and two people yelling each other but one person in the room is yelling at someone on the phone and I'm like this is not great communication know what is solving a problem here and it's lucky those situations going I think that didn't work well how can I apply that to me or looking at someone who communicated really well and being how do I apply that and then that's not that's not a perfect solution by think it's one way of seeing how you can improve it's always something like we always have to move on cuz you're going to be using it like I was so we don't communicate at work we communicate at home and our relationships with our friends are family whoever else we should be talking to or sending word to its if I never wear we have to be good at it

Speaker 3: right to offer advice and communication I guess I would start with this I would start with the idea of listening and listening well there's a really famous bass players bass guitar player named Victor Wooten you get the quote is we have good conversations when we are more focused on what the other person is saying rather than what we are saying music is the same way until he saw my mother's idea bike when you're in a band in your jamming if you're listening to the band The December of the individual parts and can be greater could you can have better communication and that algae work perfect for me and a normal life like when I'm actually sitting listening to what the other person is saying as opposed to sitting in my mind thinking about what I'm going to say next week if you're listening I know you do that everyone does that you sit there and they talk while the person is talking they're trying to think of the next sentence are going to say stop that like you're not listening to them when you're doing that like you get hit so hard to do I know especially if you're aggravated but like the best communication happens when you listen to the past and they can be frustrating cuz may not be reciprocal in every situation but that's the best advice I can give

Speaker 1: ya no totally we can go on for this for days hours communication after hours we are all right well I got to cut it. Eventually so I will send

Speaker 3: it right over left

Speaker 1: I can't do it I only got like 3 seconds and me I got these I can submit can't do it thanks for listening to this episode of engineer your career with Troy Bauman and Brennan Tamarac for more information about the show visit our website at UIC podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with Troy and I if you or someone you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey I would like to be on the show go on the website send us a short bio and we made it to invite you to come on and share your story and finally if you want to show your support please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice thanks for listening to this episode of engineer your career with Troy Bauman and Brennan Tamarac for more information about the show visit our website at UIC podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with Troy and I if you or someone you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey I would like to be on the show go on the website send us a short bio and we made it to invite you to come on and share your story and finally if you want to show your support please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice