Speaker 1: Welcome everyone to the next episode of engineer your career on the show today. We have prashanth Rao Prashant is a data scientist and software developer based in Vancouver Canada. He is 3 degrees a bachelor's in mechanical engineering from the National Institute of Technology India a masters in aerospace engineering from the University of Michigan in the US and another master's degree in computer science from Simon Fraser University in Canada for John Silver's academic background. Let him to a job is Consulting engineer at Roush Industries in Michigan. We work for several years running high performance numerical simulations for Aerospace and thermal design problems in the transportation industry. Eventually. There is love of computers and open in the problem-solving. He was drawn to the world data science and machine learning. He now works as a research assistant at his university using techniques from Big Data natural language processing and machine-learning to study news article content at scale in his free time for shots Andrews reading working at fun side projects in Python and the Linux command line as well as wandering along Scenic hike Trails, welcome at UIC.

Speaker 3: Welcome everyone to the next episode

Speaker 1: of engineer your career really excited for the show today. Thanks Reverend for TuneIn. As always. I have Brandon Tamarack on Brennan. How you doing buddy

Speaker 3: inside of the day? I am man.

Speaker 1: It's a good day. I feel like spring in Spring of springing from

Speaker 3: you get a little crazy. We are recording this and second week of May to depend on your listening in this. Yeah. I'm like like like a month and a half to 2 months into covid-19 growth. So it's been a little crazy. But you know, you don't care for work. So it's all audio. So just my wife

Speaker 1: just a man. I know you told me that I was like what no no video on, cause like, I think I don't know. I'm curious It's people thought I gave up a lot of companies are doing that but I always thought like then companies would like Worst like video to be like a make sure. He's not, you know, baby, make sure your pants on or something to make sure he's actually no

Speaker 3: just audio in screen share video.

Speaker 1: Define that takes away you could be like you do you want video?

Speaker 3: I could still can be beneficial but it's one of those things of like even when we're all in a conference room together to save a meeting with five people are in a room together in 5 people ever like go calling in like the 5 people in the room. We have cyber to stare at their computers. Anyway, like I like we're all looking at each other. So

Speaker 1: call and culture II in general you did you just have a lot of people calling in anyway, so no different than that. Well seems like a new a new space and I guess we landed that we have someone is going to talk about about a new space prashanth Rao welcome and I'm glad to hear how you doing

Speaker 2: nice to talk to you and you got to be here

Speaker 1: on the edge of new space in addition to quarantine covid-19 base, but yes, we probably shouldn't get right into a man. I guess if you could start. Can you just going to walk us through your origin story? I guess tell us the You've had a lot of lot of different zig zag in your career, and I'm excited to hear about it.

Speaker 2: Definitely. So yeah, I got that started back in the beginning. So I'm currently in Vancouver Canada, but he has been quite the road for me to get here. I'm originally from India. I did my mechanical engineering in underground back in India. And the reason I do mechanical engineering was because I was always fascinated by the underlying physics of how to behave in the real world. I used to be a lot of computer games video games into all of that kind of stuff. I'd really had some exposure to cold in your programming back in high school. I sight in a bit of basic back in the day and then some C plus plus and I dream did not enjoy it at the time when I go to the wakening in my first intro to programming class and I got you have to use your computer science 101 for every major, right? So I had to learn C language C and it was absolutely a nightmare. I barely scrape through the course. And for the rest of my undergrad I stayed as far as far away as I could from recording of any kind. I did a bit of here and there for some project but nothing more so it might be surprising today. But yeah, I'll explain how I got there about design and computer simulation specifically with regard to mechanical engineering and focus on building stuff. I was part of the SAE Baja team. So that was a lot of fun to pronounce Koenigsegg Audrey interested in order than aerodynamics science of aerodynamics and I was ready to jump into a boring desk job just after I graduated so I applied to number of graduate programs most in the US and Canada because I knew I was very aware that if I wanted to study anything later that this is the place to be So that's how I ended up in Ann Arbor, Michigan University of Michigan for masters in aerospace engineering and this was way back in 2009. And I found it very interesting project to work on with a professor of the mountains. I was on a graph design and optimization. The focus was kind of aerodynamics and optimization towards their Dynamics and structure of an aircraft but it was recording heavy and programming project Atticus is all simulator on a computer and optimization algorithms kind of simulating how the wings and the structure of the plane is going to be laid out for deep diving exposure to sirius computing. And just finished my the end of my monsters actually felt that is defined the parts for the rest of my career because in many ways the language that I was working on. I learn python the language Python programming language in this project and I feel like that really kick-started my my programming life because till then I did enjoy holding that much I was okay with it, but then when I go deep into the applications of how many write a program you can actually use it to not just you know solve math problems for her to do something VDP physical that affects the real world. Kateri open my eyes. And so we are going to lead the foundation forget. I was going to go after that and after I got my Master's eyes began working at Route in Michigan automotive consulting company and that actually works on simulation and modeling for vehicle aerodynamics and thermal design problems for all kinds of vehicles subsystems. Is it going to be a computer be job I go to chance to work on Linux clusters just really interesting deep diving Dragon Valley Technical concepts of low-level parts of how computers behave how to strip it of computing work cinnamon software because when you simulate a real word system like a air flow over car, it's not something you can run on your local machine. It's it's going to be a computer. So it needs to run in the classroom machines and you need to figure out how the competition is distributed across all these sheets. So I began writing some code to process some of that the other data recorded output. So I was always getting my programming skills sharp during that time. And in 2012, it was really interesting event in the world weigh designs in machine learning. There was a major research breakthrough in image recognition task in machine learning and it was a bit too big to basically massive improved on audio results. And this was using noodle networks. I'm guessing people ever heard of that. Oh and also do a few years before that bison language ecosystem. He was really maturing two words the space to Earth machine on Intuit building Square customized libraries that help people perform machine learning tasks. Do I didn't know much about what machine learning about when I read about these updates and developments. I realized I already have the skill in the body language and the fact that the language exploded onto the mainstream in Industry after that. It was just a strange language before this life is mostly used by researchers and scientists, but then one machine learning Quran and became mainstream industry, let me be seven eight years ago by the most everywhere. So I was sitting at my desk thinking about all these things and considering that I was realizing that you know what I think about how my supposed to be applicable in the outer space is what I do know biscuit make a decision to switch careers overnight, but I began following Trends in machine learning data science. They close the after that for a few years after that try to understand some of the math. I began reading as many blogs and you don't take me to the post that I could I would listen to podcast as well as a great source of information for stuff like this and believe it or not. I actually felt that some of my job duties as a Consulting engineer at your house or even some of the kind of steps that I used to do on a daily basis after I wish they were very similar to what are scientists as surprising. Remember when I was working as a Consulting and we had we had to design and analyze Vehicle Systems order that involves getting some cat which is designed to the drawing convertible 3D shapes and then we can have clean that the 3D shapes going to build a model like a 3D model that I can you can you can apply physics Maurice 2 and under on a simulation on that data has been working with real-world data getting a raw data from some source and you're cleaning that data and building a model on the data and visualizing Summit results so disciplined and kind of thinking that I had already had an analytical way of thinking about things. You know, what am I seeing right back here. So so yeah, I think in 2017 is when I took the radical decision that you know, what the long-term and long-range I see myself really passionate and driven by this field. What really drives me on a daily basis? I could more about it was not so much about designing car. So, you know working with vehicles. That was not the mean, you know, the exact show me to Wokcano. Happy everyday. I was more about working with the computer figuring out the opening the problem to solve and many of the skills worksheet answer be to get a science which is where I decided. You know, I think I'm going to go back and formalize my knowledge in. Can you go back to school so we can apply for a second Master's and this time I apply to Canada or mainly because I know Stephanie we cheaper than the US to program here in Vancouver. So I started that program in 2018 and I just finished at last month. So that's what all those years and he ran

Speaker 1: reservations man. It's the last day at Roush and then suffer severe and there's all the move and all that excitement. And then now to finally be closing that chapter do that's so awesome. Awesome amazing my best here, but I want I want to track us back and then kind of walk through then ask to ask him questions related to that cuz just seems yeah, so I guess I'm going to start with Forsyth Junior Senior Year of undergrad and you're like, hey, I'm going to make this jump two masters. He talked a little bit about it you okay US Canada definitely the place to be wondering if you can maybe speak a little bit more to that transition about like I guess how did you get to Michigan? Did you just Google good Aerospace. What did that process look like and I guess what were some of things maybe you thought you did well in something that you probably be different if you were to do so,

Speaker 2: they were two things actually that I used to know that I was in it was National Institute of Technology, and it was in the southern part of India. See the thing about it is a lot of the students. There are quite ambitious many of them actually came to go abroad for phds and Dakota said his way way up early on in there. So I already have friends there. Why spoken to before the name and I'll go ahead, Baxley a few times before that's why I didn't have to Google and before I knew what it was. I would have already heard it to go to come out and and you know what, I think about it a couple more like two or three different other universities, but just considering the wide range of factors of Michigan Aerospace department is really really good. 5 in the US even today and I had some some friends and colleagues and Senior summer program who were already in Michigan at the time and some of my friends going to Michigan along with me from So I thought they are putting all these things together. It made perfect sense for me to go there. But but to answer your question about how I even made a decision for Aerospace in Michigan, I think it was more about the fact that in the US. I was aware that the first day or second day Oregon universities, you know. I do need to stop once I was going to be realistic about where I saw my prospects right? So I am I teasing you stand for in no way is that down for me at that time and looking back. I have noticed. I don't have any friends, but I was in Michigan and it was it was the best place for me to live and I met some really really intelligent people there. Anybody here that think I'm going to be who I am today if I didn't end up in, Michigan

Speaker 1: Now that's awesome. That makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so you decided to go into aerospace engineering and obviously like as you'd find you didn't end up there but you initially had this moment in your undergrad where you decided that was what you wanted to pursue and maybe that would have been what you wanted to do for the rest of your career. Can you I mean, can you remember going back at all? What it was like specifically that really kind of trigger the interest in hey, this is this is a specialty I want to dive into for now at least

Speaker 2: when you hear people talk about commercial airplanes, right? You see how they tell you how they want to learn how to fly up and it would become a pilot and get pilot's license and so on for me it was literally never the case. Like I never would have it going to bite her to learn her side and part of the reason is I don't enjoy being in a plane that much but The fact that you even in the air in the first place, I mean I just began when I was in Middle School or even younger than that and the more I read about it in the morning new encyclopedia to whatever I end up looking out on how planes fly the understanding the physics and Math and how it work in helping the design from the ground up. That was what attracted me to it. And I will come to aerospace engineering Dynamics and control system side, which is better get Exotics Eddie from That's So I was very clear that I was interested in one aspect of aerospace engineering which is the aerodynamic side of things and I guess when I was not even a bit younger I had the idea that you may be working in the large companies like Boeing would be a really good long-term option for me. And I mean, I know I wasn't something that completely out-of-the-blue. So I had to kind of idea that I had at that point. I know you have that it was not hard set in my brain that I have to work and nothing else works or something like that things just organically moved in a certain way once I was in Michigan and the people I spoke to and I got to have this opportunity when I graduated I spoke to my manager at the time. I feel like I was Consulting is a good starting point in the sense that you are never tied to a specific project for the ground-up. You're always kind of exposed to different Ranger problems and depending on your skills. You can actually get can move around and can learn what you're good at. So I think that's kind of where I ended up and stuff.

Speaker 1: Okay to take code for sale Granite today. Just hopping on a plane. It's definitely one of one of the major intends complex engineering Feats that we just think is easier. I would say the average person probably thinks is easy, but it's far from that. So yeah, I guess one quick question before we transition your time at Roush. Would your Masters course based or research-based or meaning? Did you have research only credits or did you have or was it all coursework

Speaker 2: good point so Michigan actually a day give me an option to do a pure cord space Masters if I wanted to but I was a little bit more and I want to go deeper into the science of it. So I actually looked up actively working with professor. Sounds on something more Jesus Eddie. That's how I ended up doing the project

Speaker 1: team that you're saying here. You know, if you have an interest to dive technically I'm going to a research by project is going to give you the time and opportunity to do that. I'm where the coursework magic might be more General broad which is still good for people who really depends on what you want to do, but I don't think you were interested in getting more technical on a specific thing in that masters with the report or research option allows you to do that.

Speaker 2: And to be honest, I think it's to do it around very quickly write an SMS to just have told months and you really can't go deep into any Topic in 4 months and you can only do a baker II review of that topic

Speaker 3: without doing the the research side of it. You wouldn't have discovered this are they were really passionate about and if you don't get to do that in the course for the course is laid out for you ahead of time you made it to you make it to do some programming you make it to work. Something but you really are a research topic can be more than just hey, we're going to work on aerodynamics it but how are you going to do that? You're going to program all these things really up to it. You're going to miss out on it, of course or, but some people

Speaker 1: have a problem that you want to solve absolute. Don't just go you can't learn coding by going and learning coding like you're never going to learn it cuz you never going to have a passion. But if you have an angle where you need to get and you know programming is a way to get there. You're going to learn so much more as you go and if you're just like well, I need to learn about classes today and then you fall asleep to the YouTube video you wash and you okay

Speaker 2: actually just to give you a bit of a back down again tonight. I was thinking about how I do not enjoy programming high school and there was a cell C plus plus

Speaker 1: plus I think

Speaker 2: Yeah, it was an absolute nightmare that has blue screen like a blue editor screen extensive shining at you in the face and uses give me a headache after 10 minutes of using it and about 10 years from the editors have a baller. I text editors that you type on the become so much better compared with what they were like 10 15 years ago. So I mean what is notice about everything a problem but also knowing what kind of tools exist out there and during the ecosystem around that I need to find a good problem to work on

Speaker 1: right? All right. So yeah, so you start at this point, you're just finished your Masters in Aerospace at 4, Michigan you have gotten end of programming python have a bachelor's mechanical engineering and you start at Ralphs and Engineering consulting company. Mostly Automotive space sometimes not so much but mostly Automotive you sit down you're Systems analyst 1 and what are you doing? What's what's the day today? Like what like how I just talked us through what it's like to be in those shoes

Speaker 2: that's coming to work and to be honest and that was my first ever paid job one of those people who didn't get my first job until after my message for me and my phone was completely out of the ordinary that something very specific drive vehicle that has some analysis work was being done computationally and they were looking at me ways to run different animals on it simulator lose their backing on

Speaker 1: it and tell us like, how how is it to Maine presented to you in that what questions are gas? And what was the expectation of answers that you get out?

Speaker 2: So in a project like this basic company amusement park company Deploying or designing a ride in a new pack desk and that I could be completely specific to a specific location at not the same guy doesn't exist in every single part of that, So depending on the kind of intensity of the right as a college did they might have a different range of loads that the vehicle is subjected to so it's like a Klonopin the Harry Potter ride in Disney Oso in Universal Studios Orlando that moves around to talk to you up and down music through the castle ugly. So that was one of the vehicle. Should I was booked on before I got there and they had all the way to project presented is the company who is building right? They come to the house and April present a list of load loading scenarios that the vehicle is exposed to. And I was kind of responsible for ensuring that the design of the vehicle the material is it made of the connections that it has when it's the bolts and all that. They're all strong enough to withstand those loads and BC mean simulator on a computer to a range of scenarios as as evidence can be and then verify that do vehicle meeting with Integrity to call. This is the kind of reporting that needs to be done. You can imagine that this is 50 cent of students are extremely Intense or maybe this time I'll be seeing you doing when he kind of mishaps and accidents in Indiana right to 60% and Steve we have to kind of formula to design and and fries fries the analysis at that point. I can report all our findings to the point each of those reports of UFO hundred pages long. And to be honest I was new to all of this had never worked in the state of the schools are a computer tonight on people who were in my colleagues in seniors in in company to help me out and do it. Really really late opening for

Speaker 1: yeah. It is definitely longer Fortune. Maybe three or four hundred Pages can a huge effort to read and comprehend them right now

Speaker 3: and using it part 2 like this isn't necessarily a mass produce item or something. Like I mean, as you said that even up to like a robe Airline standards or if my standard so I didn't you show up on your first day on the job or whatever and it's hey work on this project, which is not not really that also Aerospace what you could do my bike ride.

Speaker 1: Goshen Society that's worried about you more catastrophic event that you look at the risk of getting in your car and dying. It's really high and go with him to getting onto an airplane. Like you're you're much safer traveling on an airplane when you are driving down the road. Yeah, there's something to the idea of like having someone potentially die on airplane crash like that just seems more horrific than the idea of dying in a car in the same is true for riding an amusement park. There are interesting societal pressures that push Engineers to have different criteria of pass-fail. That's that's society that's people at the Motions with get away from that rent in ears. Go back to the data where we're comfortable.

Speaker 3: What are like some of the tools you are using and doing this? I know it was sometimes we can really get stuck on like that. What are the tools using what programs are using especially like when you see a job application the posting for like to be announced sending you got to have five years of answers in 5 years of whatever else and all these things like for you did that have any importance of what you were actually doing or was it more? Like I know the fundamental I know like that. Don't like principles of all this I can learn the rest of what I need to learn.

Speaker 2: Absolutely. So the good thing about that software is not the kind to that use an important. It's more about the unscientific on the fundamentals and I knew certain to the nuances I talked about that was before I joined so I was worried about you no understand what you know about didn't expect me to be an expert in because I could be expected to get So yeah, so we can go to commercial software not necessarily answers for Lord of competitors and answers but the part of the work involved Downstream custom analysis of used to do that with outside of the school bus commercial software and that's what I get. My Python Programming skills came in very handy because we should I use to write scripts to kind of ultimate some of the numerical calculations done on these results and allowances is a splashy output in the form of log files at Massanutten log files that escaped out by a software program and telling me how to extract data from that. I'm going to use those numbers into processing for specific tasks for you.

Speaker 1: Catch him so they have the evolution through an analysis type position at what a price analysis one else is too and excetera is that imagine the problem? I guess I'm curious what your thoughts but I mean it's it is still everyday being challenged my problems. It's just what you are what you're able to stamp his correct is changing. I guess. I'm curious if you own your own a 7-year that Roush and you know, how how did your job from the beginning to the end change and turn them in terms of the project project you worked on and kind of what your day today life was actually like it. Maybe that was the same cuz you're kinda still look at your computer, but curious as to your thoughts and then

Speaker 2: things changed them in a long time to seniority because the more I went along all that you open with my manager is well, I was a fluid mechanics guy with morning to a dynamic centineo the fluids out of your sight So eventually once I finished all the initial projects in the amusement park space, I kind of moved onto words fluid fluid mechanics. Different kind of physics a different tools and everything but the underlined thinking processes is the same kind of figured out what the problem statement is given to you on a plate because sometimes when a customer comes with Cricut design that they want analyzed they didn't cells don't know what they want to and I don't know what the solution should end up looking like based on their the requirements. So it's up was actually as consultants going to think about you what the problem statement should be. What should we do to analyze what do we need to be warned customer about and most importantly how do you convey these results, you know, so that they're not only understood but we come across as I haven't given them die do our business proposition is the customers value by giving them no technical expertise advice. So what am I thinking was geared around those lines and more seniority came over the years. I've got more responsibility of helping people with their projects and I started doing my own projects without any and what I'm kind of went down after your kind of your part right that I have to actually write quotes and, putting up a proposal so that you could I see a budget Stewart's pie recipe projects and even though my manager but I can't I was heavily involved in the initial cooking stage of the process is one

Speaker 1: in the space having more people run stuff for you checking your answers, but then also establish a more connection to the customer in terms of defining what what it is they need for their definitely an element to that in all things having to listen to the customers words in computer and computer from that the password and what needs to be done cuz it's not always clear especially if it's healthy, right if someone's coming to get you to ask for help. It's likely If they don't know how to define the problem and so you have to be able to technically do that. And especially if you're going to tie a going to cost this much good idea of what's going to be at stake so that both parties are happy. But yeah, that's that's that's

Speaker 2: great. I was Finding ways, but I can keep my coding skills sharp. And so they were actually sitting back and you don't like keeping an eye on the industry outside of Automotive in the engine room designs everything going on here. So we actively seek out projects that my colleagues and don't do you have any specific bottlenecks when you feel like you're just doing some tedious manual go to the automated there cases where people were actually having to download data from the national highway safety website of the federal database of any vehicle records in vehicle model named mix and stuff and downloading information stored internally and Dad about insane number of mouse clicks. Take me to sitting at a computer Blinder taking a mouse. That was one thing when I said you don't want to be done by human. This will be done by machine in whatever way I could also go through those years

Speaker 1: even even if you don't have an interest in like going coating every single day, like having the knowledge to do a few automate a few tasks will set you apart every organization that I've been because I've known coding and been able to help with automating small tasks. Like I had been a mess things like knowing Visual Basic if you're if you're in a company and has Excel sheets for everything learn Visual Basic and you'll become a god net company because you will be able to automate so many of their processes that they do an Excel like there's a but the extrapolation of that to to literally do anything is something like python more broad language that you can literally interact with with everything in the Visual Basic is largely Excel. Theoretically, I think you can do anything

Speaker 2: with it and making everything to do with Microsoft Office.

Speaker 1: Windows I need to have some windows are able to do so much and automate so many things and yeah it if anything even if a small part you can make a couple admins really really happy and they'll love you and make your life a lot easier because if you do if you get a job and you automate a few annoying pass for your administrative assistant, they will love you and I guarantee they have a ton of super annoying pass that they're actively doing right now. So you can help with a small plug for even just basic programming to help other people like you at your

Speaker 2: job. I think button is really special in general because you can actually interface with mini tools at the command line levels. It's not you don't have to rely on automating that the application Level you can go right down to the root of your operating system used by the new blue different application together some clothing line. Is EZ Pass?

Speaker 3: I'm going to make you less conversation going off the rails. So very strong feelings about this. They sleep with strained pythonista in my own way. Does your listening that's like the official term for someone who's real python, but I've noticed the same thing of my work cuz there are a lot of people who do not know how to code or program or what they do know is we use Matlab in some course in college and it was terrible. I didn't like it. So I've been using python lot. How to make a letter D and now it's this or or like you said, like someone doesn't need to go through a filter a spreadsheet out 60 different ways that you can make a quick report for that and I seen other people at my work we've been making more dance to it was nothing to do it's their job and they're getting more recognition more face time with people further up the chain from them like their names are going up because they are using the skills that are not directly rated related to engine calibration, which really do on a daily. But it's we're making bigger tools that are going to benefit everyone. They can really save us time and money everything down the field down the line and I feel that there should be a much larger focus on Coating in undergrad that it should be something people have to learn more. Maybe they are I guess it's been it's been awhile since I've been there

Speaker 1: is no problem. Exactly. I don't know man. It's so hard like, I guess I would have a degree but it's like almost like schools need to force them to have an outside of school project that is interested. You know, I mean, I guess the struggle it's like if you tell him to take a class in Python, like I don't know, you know, but like if they if they were insulted that you

Speaker 3: need to be like find something your life. That's annoying. Let's figure out how we can make it better be pregnant like

Speaker 1: it's

Speaker 3: in college.

Speaker 1: I think this is where you know doing a undergrad research because you're going to be forced to have a problem that you got to find a tool for and it's not like class. We're like the expectations you going to tell me the tool to use you're going to basically give me the code to the type. If you don't give me line by line, but you baste it at some point tell me every single line. I just got to figure out what to do. I don't know man, that guy is such a situation even more so than most things but it's like so yeah for those listening like learn programming you're going to struggle if you just take a class in class education can get you a starting point. Like I can help you start but like it's not going to help you become an expert like you talking to him. There's this intermediate step that has to come through trial and error and a lot of that is really good projects. So, I don't know which operation commands. Can you do

Speaker 2: for me? I think the language is really really important. But at the same time I feel like the first language you get exposure to back in high school or whatever it is. You have to relate with something in that language. And if you if you have a bad experience like I did with you us give me yours to recover from that. So so I think that it matters in terms of the mentorship that you have and I think of a programming start in most institutions in all the way from high school to undergrad does it really take a lot to catch up on this is not a test and it

Speaker 1: should be I love that comment about a mentor man. I'm about like a lot of my positive experiences and programming are in a language that I had a mentor for I had someone I can go ask questions to Google stuff. You can figure that out. That's a foul. But if you have someone around you you can physically go into. Hey, here's my code. I'm struggling with this like help me through this like, I don't know like I know lab you really really want to take a green base. It's more exactly and my PhD advisor is a great lab you guy and he right for my senior design before he came to Michigan Tech I had to do love you and I hated it when asked question to my life sucked but as soon as I was able to use the language with them around me who I can ask question to like I loved and I loved it now and it just I had a I love your comment about the emotion around the language in having positive experience in staying positive. And if you if you're in a language that you're not having a positive experience with Try something else. I mean cuz you're better off learning a different language that you you have good emotions about just

Speaker 2: to add to that the languages in the sense that language is syntax. I think the way it resonates with you as a person there is some kind of personal connection have the languages and accents for me by then was just a language of clicks once I started learning how to use a network for me. I actually enjoy the timer side of the computer even when I had the worst bugs and I was trying to figure out what does boxwood about I was still not miserable. I was just happy doing it and I could not have said the same thing. I was doing with C plus plus a gallery near than I would have to go that

Speaker 3: route. We learn Java an introduction to computer science and I don't think we ever touched it after we hung up for once that

Speaker 1: sir. I like not like learning it in like not retaining any largely goes back to CS 101 about the syntax right now. Like even I don't even know if that's your customers coming as you were one. I know if I had a problem I was interested at the time. I learned it. I'm sure I would have at least remembered a lot more and I think maybe that's the thing that I'm trying to get across. That was I guess if you're passionate about the project that you were cats going to help with tan when you're trying to learn the language and just trying to learn a language would it take to learn a language going to suck like imagine? This was like eight learn Spanish right now. Why am I going to see my going to go to know you're going to be there for three years? You should probably learn Spanish. Alright, okay, bring it bring it back on the rails turn it. All right, so we are getting towards the end of our time at Roush were doing some business stuff for also doing some technical management, but we're starting to think maybe something different I guess pick up there and I guess tell me a little bit about what those thoughts that sounded like in your head.

Speaker 2: I was seeing what I was going for the next five seven years of my career and I didn't really see myself getting into managing people and the other people's work. I do understand management line of work was never my thing. I was never that interested in it. But the more I thought about it at the the way companies a structure in the automotive industry or even Consulting that's in that matter. You don't end up being that technical very very long. Do you end up having alot about that instead of responsibility is not working. So on and I was given so that was one of the things that really made me question do I didn't want to be doing this over the next 10 years and the other thing was I was really becoming better at fighting and coding in general and I was getting deeper into town with a messy stuff. Beaver do I not making any sort of thing? I was doing a project but I'll still significantly like learning a lot about it by reading on the side and kind of doing my own research. So definitely let you know. I think I have the right girls get upset and I already have the coding jobs already have the the mindset towards analyzing problems and I find out you didn't Define sitting in front of a computer running out snooze Pacific bugs at movie cast recording me to spend my time. So that's what I'm doing right now. I think I was more concerned about you know, we had it might be a little time before I go get my footing in the space and going to figure out exactly what I want to be but I don't see the strength to change anytime soon. They are just everywhere right now. I think there is no beginning no shortage of interesting problems to solve in this

Speaker 3: into space. You mentioned that you were like reading a lot and learning a lot on the side. Were you doing a lot of this outside of your normal work hours? This is something you were interested in or was it wasn't close enough where it was kind of you able to learn while at work because you're also applying it

Speaker 2: actually was mostly outside of a look at some of it was doing my down time off and I was really like not that busy at work, but for the most part so it wasn't really interesting aspect was the fact that I had the longest commute so nice commute for about 45 minutes one way and I was relating 2016. I realize that and I see wasting a lot and hot every day doing nothing in the car and the guy was trying to get extra time for learning outside of work a violin in commute and the podcast would really really that's what I mean. There's some super interesting data science podcasts out there and I highly recommend looking up to clean some of those out if you're interested in getting into it. But yeah, that's really like change the way I look at it because people were talking about what they did. Our problems installing Burn Notice people. Are you stalking us about the technicalities of how to think about it assigns problem? And that the one thing I learned about how to learn new things is don't limit yourself to reading or take appointment specific mode of learning Avenue on something you just maximize the the median temperature in exposing yourself. So try to listen to a podcast on blogs a tycoon code, please research papers that you spell across the entire spectrum and I think that really pays off in the long Table

Speaker 1: Pizza Hut me how people learn that I do want to talk my ear, but I'm pretty sure there's something inside you have some people learn by seeing some people learn by doing some people learn by listening and you need to activate all the ways in which you learn in medium

Speaker 2: diversity of enforcement drive. So if you include about something, talk about something and then you come across Avenue in your own cold later on six months late and usually hey, I actually heard someone talk about it and then go back and read all about it and then all those Concepts connect.

Speaker 1: That's great. I think I guess I'm not going to go into the podcast podcast while they drive or gently there's so many people that have another situation is they spend a lot of time in the car? And I think that one of the big reasons bad cats are blooming but yeah. Anyways, we'll leave that that. That's an important point that

Speaker 3: use the time like look at your life and look at the time you have available to learn something like maybe it is an hour and a half Drive in the car and it was not podcast. Maybe it's in audio book or something that you could be reading related to weathering engineering or not. But

Speaker 1: half an hour day. I'm going to try and spend at least 20 minutes reading like you can, there's there's certain ways to carve out time to

Speaker 3: make a transition your life. That's what writing your story now. It's probably how do you spell this time learning? You decide you want to make it? What was the next step? What was the boy that jump look like

Speaker 2: a computer with my job is really good at what I was doing and I had no problem in any sense of the word, right? So I just I was really worried about you know, if I make a mistake by leaving all this behind and moving on to something completely new and never done this before. So that's kind of why I spent the better part of two years contemplating this whole thing while I was learning about Carson and reading up stuff. I just want to talk to people I talk to as many people in the industry and whoever and in space and you talk about you my friends my family like everyone I could and I think that's kind of a few years after all that thinking that kind of in a came to the decision that yeah, it's time to move on

Speaker 1: there. Was it just like, you know what I thought about this like like a purchase on Amazon, that's

Speaker 2: enough. Towards the end of 2017 and that's when I began really applying to University. That's why I said I won't make progress until I should take action and reaction that you could actually really seriously applying to universities for going back to school and you might wonder why I chose to go back to school and Vine or can you self learn and take some time off work a job in the US on a Visa and you know, that's a little tricky situation being unemployed and you're not having time to search for job and that was huge scat and the second thing was not having network and direct connections to people who are willing to hire. So that was another big problem. Also. I know this is a lot of companies even though they say they don't look at your degree or pass background check it out. I feel like I don't know that you can read gauge how good a person is by seeing their Resume and a part that involves what if you have so it would be hard for me to convince someone. Okay. I have mechanical and aerospace engineering in my in my history and Kennedy convert to skills into doing something in computer science in data science. So I didn't see myself being able to do that and I had convincingly at that point and I was the one who formulates my knowledge it going to be on the foundation's because I never actually study computer science running away from did you decide so that's when I sent down and go go for it not to pack

Speaker 1: sound like you used it to learn some of the basics possible build a network like that's and use it to transition. But those are great examples. I'm forever young release you have both of those listening. I'm episode 10 haven't talked about this idea if he uses his Master's in business to transition to business, but he also did a very similar thing to you pronounce, which is interesting is that he thought about his life projector e and said, I don't want that. Like that's huge for those listening like I think think 5-10 years from now on the path that laid out for you. Is that where you want to go? Cuz when you get there going to be a lot harder to change then then it is now and that's so just want to point that out, you know, so this is the technical side of the transition but I love with it. We also in episode 10 of the business out of that transition in a specific same Broadway hits realizing that the password isn't what I want. How do I do it? And what does it look like and if it's right there at that we see these steps from you man. It's you know, what's it's not easy, but it can be done and I think you know, it starts with thinking about the future

Speaker 2: with someone who played off. I need to shut down this lonely miserable going back to school after working in industry in mind that I mean, I realize how like, I feel like when your in University you are you're completely during your mind words. An academic style of learning which is basically a screenshot that you looking at this for that phone off. For a particular course passing a particular quiz on an exam in that goes and writing a particular sport or an assignment in the plural form at the office for that's a very different skill than actually being out in the street. Thinking about opening the problems that nobody's you giving you before and you have to think out-of-the-box by doing your own research online tutorial different ways of thinking University board

Speaker 3: again. How hard was it also switching to email even even studying on your own switching to taking a master's degree. Like it's like stepping into master's degree of something that you don't mess. I have a direct undergrad degree and I think these are transitional cat you eventually you did your undergrad mechanical engineering you transition to a masters mechanical engineering makes logical sense

Speaker 2: so that he was a thing if I'd applied to a direct computer science Master's I might have found that Harder They want to reply to his little more focused on big data and data science. So the specific program and she's good with people who have Computing or mathematical backgrounds of any kind not necessarily computer science. And so the prerequisite for not a stringent as you might expect complete Independence written to hear the structures and I kind of think it was more about operating systems knowledge this evening about how Linux Works pay ticket at 6.

Speaker 1: How are you able to tease that out? Right? So you you Google you're looking at this list of universities online. How are you able to tease out that that was what was happening at your University as if you know what I mean just for those wishing they may want to do something. Like how can they know what types of words really to look for on their website to know that that's the case.

Speaker 2: So if anyone looking to get into the key thing to remember is this to completely I want a battle but the kind of branched out career paths software engineering is one part and data science and machine learning is another part and be kind of hot go hand-in-hand in many ways. You can actually separate the two clearly, but But the key thing to remember is if you want to go down the path of software engineering you need a different skill-set. You need a lot more focused on computer algorithms and knowledge and data structures and fundamentals of computer science and software Engineers are mainly focused on scaling up code that I can't. John's in production systems and that is well tested and does not fail when the stimulus is running in a business scenario. And and that's that. It's a really big challenge in your company. So that's how many different but then they designs where you're looking more from an exploratory standpoint. You're looking at data and you can't figure out how we can use that data to make business decisions and tactic has more of an analytical mind. So why you do me programming skills, you don't need to be very very deep into the bottom side of things. You can go more in terms of knowing what model stop lying. Interfering with modest means visually look look up the program has spoken and Drake. I might as I was very clear that I was going on the data data science road. So I looked a program that they specifically listed these appointments and and in many ways website pretty clear in the way to describe. Okay, you need a background make sure that your coursework in these things are straightforward and approachable to people from outside of computer scientist is not up close face for only people left and right now because in all Industries for data scientist, and I don't think they will be able to feel that if they just need

Speaker 3: background. We've been saying we've been saying machine learning data science for for 50 minutes in this interview without maybe actually properly defining it. Can you give us meet maybe the broad the broad picture of what is a compass within that

Speaker 2: actually do they call the confusion as to the number of kind of titles that you see you in job postings and we will hear about this data science is data engineering this data analyst and is machine learning engineers. And this is the old spectrum of positions of responsibility that you can come across and their difference is exactly the same the word data comes across a loud machine only comes alot essentially machine learning is it stays in your way to use a predictive modeling approach using data as an input and US-23 in the model on on specific data that you have and you use that to make predictions on future NC theater. That's kind of the basics of what machine learning does.

Speaker 1: artificial intelligence

Speaker 2: marketing term that you could call it a subset of AI because yeah yeah I was the original idea that came back way back before computers became mainstream but the theoretical ideas for you I began in the 1970s and give me the last 20 years or so that's when they told me she picked up a lot of space

Speaker 1: So are you going to do going to make a quick Buck Stove for those listening to want to hear more about what it means to be like a software engineer controls in you if he wasn't episode 7 with Justin, he's a controls engineer and a software engineer, but he's really heavy on the algorithms and like I use very specific algorithms to Define where has Eric and episode 5 also a software engineer, but he he's doing more of like I did a process analysis, but it's it's been a very confined like space like I'm using that YouTube so it's like how do I get YouTube videos to happen. If not necessarily like I just have this random cluster of data. How can I get information out of it, which is more than machine learning space. It seems like I'm and I guess help me understand soap machine learning. Is it I guess the difference between machine learning and I think neural network since I like this idea of machine money. I think imma let you answer I guess what

Speaker 2: networks are they the same kind of Applied with a subset of machine learning networks the kind of use of a kind of a distributed approach. They have individual units called neurons kind of loosely based on human brain neurons. What is the point of a neural network is using multiple layers of these neurons arranged in a certain way you can pass data through those layers the day that will be processed and converted into formatting to into matrices and then perform linear algebra and a bunch of operations on this on this Macy's and then convert that into something that you can put it as an output. So essentially up your model loans from dear data and then is able to make predictions on that. So very simple example Does with his image recognition, so if you have a Google Search and you type in the name in Google search for an image is able to use the the value that you see that you entered and kind of give you images that are based on that and how does it know that an images of human inputs to what Indian is based on chest pictures and

Speaker 1: potato? That's what

Speaker 3: we're talking here about machine learning in the context Ayrsley computers needs Lisa Google image searches way to think about that. But what what are the other industries that the machine learning is going? I know I've seen some of it in automotive already, which you might not think about cuz we're not necessarily making a computer interact with making vehicles. But who's looking to hire people in the space

Speaker 2: you want to everyone you can actually use machine learning and she was native Industries are examples of details any online shopping kind of scenario. They're using transcendental machine learning to identify patterns in people shopping behaviors, open Amazon or any other online website find a way to use the data that in a way that they actually know who exactly what you're doing on the time but they collect data about what you been buying and then they have metadata about you about your age and where you bought from what controller keyboard and so on. Predict. Okay. What can I do that men should be sober suggestion should be show to the person based on what they entered as a suggested items. You buy something like Onyx computers rtd's Affleck related to that topic

Speaker 1: like if I'm given data X and Y and I want x + y like I can use the equation or the model X + Y if give me my answer, but if it's like in put equation output in the idea of machine learning in the space, it's like you don't need to know the equation that figures out the equation for you.

Speaker 2: It's and it's a no and relation exactly you need input.

Speaker 1: Black Box output and that's good and bad one. You never know. What's in the black box of any kind of figure out why the output is you don't know but in other ways, I think the reason why it seems the reasons he blows you don't need to have modeling equations. Like okay, you can see what's the matter equation for weather. Troy wants to buy more Electronics. I don't know why that's another weird thing like I was feeling today and whether or not it's 3 a.m. And I can't sleep like but like, you know, that's the best kind of the cool part about it. I think from what it sounds like to me what you're saying is like if you have a large amount of data and you're trying to get information from it, they'll hire like that. Those are Nintendo switches every industry for the most exactly.

Speaker 2: So I'm going to be looking in the research lab here in University, and I'm busy working on news content analysis. So I basically work on analyzing the news article content from Canadian. English outlets and analyzing the topics that they're covering his me screaming about you lyrics on the internet getting those articles that straw text and then processing that text to understand what topics are in that text you basically contradict a topic unless you should give it a ton of data, right? So the model Ernst and kind of gives you an output in terms of it is of the distribution of words and then I interpret that as a topic and that kind of gives us information on okb Topix cover. So into people the author of this traffic was, you know gender the people are so when two people are quoted in this article. So it is a way to identify actually individual people names of persons names in the article and listen to analyze relationships between all of these things.

Speaker 1: So what is what is this? I guess we talked about little bit like that classes introduced you to this, but now that you're done with this Masters like tell us about like what you gained. You don't like what did it give you they did it give you this for this framework that give me know what if you could summarize a few points of what you feel like you really gain for the Masters. What would you say they were

Speaker 2: talking about it? Okay. So main thing I gain I think was one of the things I gained was within my own card. So I'm learning from people by my peers and colleagues with like-minded people. I think that's a really big place find something. You may not get when you're doing self-learning. That's a pretty big Place Market coming to coming back to school because you're learning machine learning from data industry agnostic and the sense that you can generalize your skills across the industry example in my previous job. Master in Royal Bank of Canada Visa better Financial organization. So even though I'm not very deeply involved in finance and I don't really know much about you know, that Financial transactions going on. My goal was applying a machine learning algorithms on language related tasks, like what I'm doing right now. So if you need for specific aspects of a specific test, if you know a lot about industry to begin with but it it does not mean that you're at the door is shut if you're not from the industry to begin with so I think that's one thing I gained from this program where I I can you gain General skills that I feel I can apply in a range of Industries all the way from GTA health insurance to banking you

Speaker 1: name it. So are you learning those approaches? Like we talked about neural networks as a technique for machine learning. Are you learning just a bunch of different type of technique or approaches that are better in certain types of situations in this format you like? Well, I learned about these approaches. And so I think I'm going to select this one to start with because like that type of stuff

Speaker 2: to understand which models are appropriate for which scenario is I mean, oral motor therapy clinical across-the-board and you are focusing learn the different kinds of fishing joining techniques, the weather's better. If you don't have enough data than you how to apply certain different approach. So that's why it's it's kind of fun getting your mind and learning how to experiment with these techniques used in the real

Speaker 3: world. What what advice do you have someone who wants to get into this round who's interested in it whether there but they're just starting undergrad or maybe they're in the same position. You were of the kind of learning about a tangentially want to get into it. What's what are some big key pieces of advice you have for them

Speaker 2: to be honest. This is a field where if you do a decent job and you're in a decent team Edison Company the job in a salary job title and salary will find you. You don't have to go chasing after it and that is because many people look at, you know, the blog posts and articles of the same data scientist sexy job any of that kind of thing and you go to realize that a large part of the job is it's not as glamorous as it looks a lot of faces where things that you just stuck in. You don't know what you're doing and products are moving slowly and things like that thing that the thing that sets a good day. They designed us apart from What's a good one is the fashion for self-learning busy not being idle. If you have that passion, you make sure that anytime you're not things are not going the way that they should be you sometimes kind of external would like Twitter or social media or something to learn from other people get out there and go about things before deciding on the field is not for you. And I feel like if you start texting by looking for job titles and salaries and things went with hard times come you're actually going to be very negative about it and not not the right way. So that's kind of what the biggest advice I would give anyone entering the field or something and find the area that your your your passion is all about.

Speaker 1: yeah I think it's great advice and another bathing big theme of the show I'm probably unrealistic and one big reason Brandon I started this is trying to get people to find jobs that they enjoy more cuz if you like your job more you're going to be doing more outside you can be better at it you can be enjoying the hard times more you're going to you can I make more money in general in that was funny though it's like I say that but like for the people that love their job like it's not about the money so it's how you say that but it's like if you actually got into the position of enjoying your job you wouldn't care about the money like we're really fortunate as Engineers to be in a space where if you found a job you like you're going to make a salary that's good enough to hell at you survive you know it's it's It would be a vast majority. And so I think fortunately we can give the advice of find a job you love and if you're not going to worry about the money and you're going to enjoy going to work and you're going to be you know, researching other stuff on the side when you get home and it's going to be enjoyable and yeah, when things are hard and difficult, you're going to like it here, right? I'm going to go in there. Okay, great. I don't know what I want to do. What do I do know like so they're listening totally fair, but how you start I think is he start listening to people listen to podcast with no experience is researching different areas to find what you maybe don't like dry internships try experiences and things and if you come away from that experience thing, I hate it perfect. That's good. That's good information. You realize you don't like that area and then try to hold yourself into it something that you like. That's some great. You said it earlier in the podcast shopping? I love it. Like what drives me like that you started out with that question when you're going to make the transition what drives me like that's great for those are things start with that. Like why would drive you? What are you up to? What are you get excited about what when you get home from a long day at work and you want to do more more research like what? What are you what information are you pulling up like with filling up gas and articles about machine learning data science. That's great and you get excited about it. So I think that's that's a great team and that's awesome. I love that.

Speaker 3: I would ever say long as they want something I've heard recently is like what what do you lose track of time of doing like what is the one thing cuz it cuz in you and in your job shot that could have been like I like the CAE stuff that they announce the stuff I'm doing but it's really I lose track of time when I'm when I'm coding when I'm doing that stuff related to it. Like you kind of pull out bits here and there and and it's something else iPhone's been helpful is is I think a lot of people maybe it's just me can have a lot of interest even with an engineering and like I want to learn this And it could hardly focus on one I found is been like okay, I'm going to spend this week just two weeks this month. I'm just going to learn that thing and at the end of the month if I don't like it I can switch and I can look up something else but that's listening to podcast reading articles are doing whatever I think people can slowly filter through different things to eventually get to a point where they find me that one thing they combined it with what am I spending time on? Oh, I really enjoy doing this. Let's explore this.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It's on it's listening the heart that like, I'm an engineer like your life is dealing with problems that are not solve essentially. I mean unless you'd like it. Yeah, you're going to give me failure and you got to figure out how to work through that. It's so much easier to work do that. If you're enjoying what you're doing and Ennis in at least in the topic of interest in the struggle without his idea. Like how do I accept failure and struggles and enjoy it and continue to move on and do that? If you aren't everything that a domain you like like it helps a lot cuz you know if you make if you hate working on like sales and closing Market lights don't work in that space cuz it just seems it seemed obvious. But I think it's not obvious is for you to be a fly on the wall and look at your situation and realize that that might be your current situation

Speaker 2: between please. Because things are not going to Google all the time and you come out much stronger when to see what you didn't do right in any of these experiments that you do not know just in terms of a project applying to a job and not like in particular role in things like that. So I think that it could be changed your outlook towards the next challenge on your face if you go into a certain number of failures.

Speaker 1: I want a technical question for you. Tell me that I'm struggling with machine learning space. So you see a hero like I kind of makes sense to me like in this idea of like, okay, we have the system or try and understand it. I do this model give me this answer in The Next Step as a CA engineer as always I called is an answer makes sense. Cuz you know you hate you that go on the model though. He's going to give an answer right in the good seeing you in the nearest from my perspective always like went back to the wall. I did this location in my notebook and I'm within 20% of that. So we're probably close to that kind of stuff. But that seems not possible in the realm you're in because it seems like to a large extent. There's a lot of old push buttons gave me a model. What do I do now? Can you help me understand? Like what the hell what the difference is that cuz it seems really like I don't know different to me in that it's not clear to me what happens once you get a model and then you like? Okay. Well, is it good or not? How

Speaker 2: does the way this is normally done is the new training model on existing data. You can separate you break down the data into like a training set that use for training about it and then validation set that I didn't get any man to be unseen by the motor during training and went to get something trained you run the Emoji on vibration setting and verify that the number that gives you her number of metrics to track depending on the problem to any kind of problem. So you can use like accuracy numbers or internet come harmonic mean measures and there's a bunch of different methods used to quantify that has more reasonable accuracy or published model without actually proving that it's it's performing in certain. Cobra skin feels right now is that there's a number of Benchmark Motors a benchmark data sets that are come out so they vetted and get it out by some of the biggest companies and organizations BBC make the data in a data set is Kenan and an easy to interpret for a wide range Motors so most people when they publish a new model and and that you would use it in your work you would only always test it out on the bench McGillis it to verify that it's accurate enough for you and then adopt you more than that start on your own validation data after that and and without that is no way you can actually convince anyone that has good or

Speaker 1: bad validations that's that's awesome

Speaker 3: awesome what I think we're about coming up on time here but is there anything else you want to share with anyone listening like it's like we covered a lot of different stuff today from finding a passion to machine learning everything like any parting words

Speaker 2: from my next meeting tonight I can tell you that you don't have to be like people to computer scientist or anything to you got to think about changing careers into you can be so start getting this is not the only bad for you and if they cannot be the best spot for everybody there are constraints everybody lives and things like that so I think about what what's most suitable for your circumstances and always find a good fashion that you think you can carrier no interest in the field on for the next several years so that you don't end up five years from now questioning why you made a decision the

Speaker 1: first place How to reset a couple times different things other resources that you said I guess if you had a couple on the top of your head other resources people would check out if they're interested other podcasts or blogs are things that you would you could name

Speaker 2: what is really like the forecasted in heading out of the starting of India time to call dinner decorations. It's a very popular data science podcasts available on Soundcloud in a bunch of other applications so dead that difficult thing about that is a Supply in bite-size information. So you don't have to like listen to 1 Hour episode and get overwhelmed us a good starting point to understand what it is all about the dogs. I think there's a number of blogging websites are there so I can't really think of a good one leg. The top of my head right now. But yeah, it didn't even more open source material out there for you to read up on your different projects.

Speaker 1: cool Spider-Man well it's been excellent really appreciate it really interesting sounds like you've had quite the adventure and I'm really really glad they fit you able to come on a chair I think I vote if I really really think

Speaker 2: it's going to help out a bunch of people so yeah thanks a lot for having me on

Speaker 1: where we go man another great episode I love this one was great just a lot of different changes a lot of things to learn from yeah what is would you like me I'm in some of the stuff to pull away from

Speaker 3: the how he was aware of of what he was doing his job but also find this other thing he was interested in that was related to his job but it wasn't necessarily it and he saw like you're something else I might be able to do that I found myself a really enjoying our finest anytime on listen to podcast in the car bad I'm not listen to buy gas in the car about you know analysis engineering plan listen to update aside like let's make that ass make that jump into that because I think Last time we can get stuck in here's where I'm at. Here's what I'm doing. This is my job. This is my career on the side, but that's my hobby. It said he he took that he said no, this is something I want to do. I want to pursue what I'm passionate about it. I think being self-aware like that and really paying attention not just letting things in my past you buy where you could have like, there's the train I did jump on it because that that's the opportunity. I want to ride out for the rest of my career.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I think it's it's it's good advice it, you know, it is easy to stay stagnant, but it don't think it's supposed to happen. This way I guess is my opinion and I think it's continues to be with the thing. We see. I think the other thing that I really took away was this idea of even big picture things can be applicable Lacrosse bounce like for example you talk about how is that his world and c e was data model answer and it's still his big picture thought now in a totally different field a field that you think would be Not not vastly different but definitely different. It's even his big picture thinking skills were still applicable in his new role. You know, you may think while I know a specific skill. I know Matlab in that might be transferable to a new type of job. But even the way you approach problems in Big Picture thinking is often a applicable between new jobs. And so you may I know I think there may be people really think we're worried that I have to go and learn everything brand new and that's scary and that's why I'm not going to make my job to make my well, you know, what impression of case there were so many similarities that there wasn't really a ton that he needed. I mean, I just needed meet with the language to know like these are the type of tools that I have in my toolbox. I can once he has that he can just run with it but there's often just like small areas that you can improve on you can do that through different things. He did it through master's degree, but you can also accomplish a different ways. So I think I really took that away is like making what seems like big jumps might not be as big as you think cuz

Speaker 2: The thing where you're going to go

Speaker 3: I agree. I think it's almost been a common theme when we were talking to met a few episodes ago. It was I got a degree in biomedical engineering but like I could use those skills in marketing and we're about that consult and I think that the engineering skill-set does open a lot of extra doors. You just have to open up your eyes a little bit to see how it applies a different ways without pigeonholing yourself in mechanical engineer. I'm an automotive engineer. I'm whatever like know you could do lots of other things because because problem solving is a kind of a universal skill and lots of ways from the technical things and easily

Speaker 1: transfer. So yeah in general notes for myself. I think it's fascinating. So cool. next one things are going to listen hope you have a good night

Speaker 3: for more information about the show visit our website at UIC podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with Troy and I if you or someone you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey I would like to be on the show go on the website send us a short bio and we made it to invite you to come on and share your story and finally if you want to show your support please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice