Speaker 2: In this episode of engineer your career. We talked to Sally Hazel for a systems engineer working on Project Bound for outer space after seeing a shuttle launch from Kennedy Space Center when she was Elementary School Sally knew she wanted to be an astronaut and has been pursuing that dream ever since she has a bachelor's degree in aerospace engineering a master's degree in space systems engineering both from the University of Michigan valleyworks the laboratory for atmospheric and space physics at the University of Colorado Boulder where she brings multiple engineering disciplines together to make sure important sensors and instruments are ready to go into space. Welcome Sally to EYC. Welcome everyone to another episode of engineer your career on Brennan. Tymrak. Do I was Troy Bauman?

Speaker 1: Hello. Welcome back album listeners. Thanks for tuning in yet. Again this time summer. It

Speaker 2: is still summer.

Speaker 1: We always have to talk about the date, even though it doesn't really feel like another month. So people always confused. I'm sure it

Speaker 2: was

Speaker 1: fine. Today. We're going to work at think of something totally different than we haven't talked about yet Aerospace outer space. There's a lot a lot of cool stuff going on in outer space these days a lot of stuff in the media recently lot of exciting things u.s. Is back putting people in capsules and attached and tons of explosives essentially and

Speaker 2: lightning on the way with words my friend. You have a hair appointment

Speaker 1: to make it more elegant and Technical we would like to welcome Stanley to the show Sally. Hi, welcome to the show to hopefully it give me a better vocabulary. To describe the explosives with

Speaker 3: hair studio in GPS

Speaker 2: based on our work and

Speaker 1: we should probably bring everyone up to speed on you and where you are or why you got to there. So if you don't mind giving us kind of the minion version media Mike Burrows know how you got to where you are to be awesome

Speaker 3: when I was a kid. I took a trip to Kennedy Space Center with my family and sauce. I don't wash and thought that I want to be an astronaut Michelle. Sorry

Speaker 1: to interrupt you. So you're like a kidney like I want to be in that thing.

Speaker 3: And I would just so happen that we were going to that we were there and we saw the launch from the beach in Cocoa Beach. Growing up. My dad wants to stay at Michigan State it when I was in eighth grade. We were supposed to research the career we wanted to do so I asked my dad, you know, where can I do aerospace engineering because you know, where do I go to do that? I hate to say it but the University of Michigan survival school has one of the best aerospace engineering programs in the country. So I said, okay and I was able to So the market was not great. We were still recovering from recession and got a masters of engineering degree in space systems engineering and a graduate degree and discover systems engineering degree and about half of the people in my class did not get jobs directly related to systems engineer still the market was actually hoping to get a job at JPL NASA jet propulsion lab and interviewed for a section and they didn't hire a single person that year for that second. That was an interesting train for it's in my career and I didn't listen that previously but I ended up getting a job that one semi-related and that's where I started like my first real engineering job. And that actually turned out to be a really great experience and I think it was great because now I do what I'm doing now, which is working at Last Stand Boulder. And so now I'm actually working as a year on Space instrumentation.

Speaker 1: That's awesome back there. Love story. I have to go back to 8th grade you like for those others others only. If I don't know what I want to do, so it's cool to have such a inspirational moment. It sounds like your dad was a big part of this to in terms of helping you figure out what you wanted to do, but I want to go back to this idea of you read a book. so I don't guy

Speaker 3: who was

Speaker 1: I can show you what a critical one who how did you even think of like I'm going to read books about astronauts to figure out how to become one with the I don't know if you remember I mean sorry, it's so

Speaker 3: another thing that I did in relation to that was that I did a report on Sally Ride woman in space and we sure to me and you know, what an amazing thing as a kid to have somebody that you can directly look to to say this person doing something really awesome and we're we're basically the same so therefore I could do that to let the thing that I want to know if not a lot of people have So I I learned about her and then I think you know after I went to to Kennedy I was just like looking for a book report on something I might as well, you know, she was somebody that's that's going to be interesting to read about. So, I think I just happened to cross this autobiography autobiography describes how he got

Speaker 1: people that are doing different things. Like if you're looking for inspiration, that's awesome

Speaker 2: that inspiration like early on knowing what you want to do. I think is fairly rare. I know we've we had an early episodes with Chase anyone he want to get the racing early on was able to do that. But like most other people we talked about most of the people. I know it's not like this is exactly what I wanted to do from a you know, 8th grade or whatever like Whatever. I'm going to go full on that just because things like stuff just comes in from all over on that Journey since you're still 10 plus years out from actually getting that like, I think that's really awesome. And it's really cool to see how you were to stay focused on that.

Speaker 3: I'm here too, and I know that I don't know what your parents do. The fact that I had him like a

Speaker 1: stank like it I think you absorb like that that parents like their analytical process like how they think through things at all how they are. They approach situations how they tackle brown gravy imagine, you know, younger you watching your dad try and solve problems and I was taking an engineering approach to it. So that's that's in if not even another point on Mentor Studio parents can be great mentor and in terms of how they set you up for Success like that. That's that's awesome and dad for being like ears are gears a really good school that you need to shoot for and that's I think that's really cool. Sounds like a

Speaker 3: great guy.

Speaker 2: A little bit that's that's not something I have much experience in it. Since you had a master's degree in physical and Space Systems. What is that?

Speaker 3: You are eating a lot of different languages between like a mechanical engineer or what they're saying translating it into something that can help you solve a problem.

Speaker 1: Sometimes they describe the sum of all the systems integrator where you're you're basically at some point all the pieces have to come together and be one cohesive thing that works together. If you had a bunch of people told one person. I'm building the cabinet like it just would never all come together. There has to be some kind of integrator systems person. It's looking at the system if they hate his sauce to come together interact with each other send your Codes around each other shut down everything when something goes wrong or what like all that stuff has to happen. And so it's it's larger like that. Am I getting that right and it's so it's so you're in undergrad and you talk about the Market's not not grainy like okay. I'm going to go get my Master's. How how did you pick that specific specialty? Is that the only Masters in becoming the closest to becoming an astronaut that it was that the focus targets how

Speaker 3: to read I'd always thought, you know, I'm going to get my undergraduate degree. What was and thought no actually really interesting to me and the way I found that out was doing my senior project and realize we might like I really like to know what's going on with everybody and I think it comes from me like playing team sports growing up. You know, you have to be a good position to be a really good team member you got to know what other people are doing and you got to be able to communicate with them, you know, so when was this isn't hearing was I thought and then at the same time, I was interacting with a class above me. So they were in their first year of this M&S systems degree and they were telling me this is the type of class. New York design something and build it You don't have to take the barrier for me. Like I am so taking the GRE to me. It was like giving it. I need it very attractive to me along with the fact that I was not finding my aop so it was a really natural next up for me to move into a program.

Speaker 1: I was so bad at school. Like I don't remember. I got a nice 84 English, but it was garbage like if you want to just I'm sure look at me and my I like English score of act you have no idea that I've ever be able to make it into a PhD program. Like I am now you can I call now he's probably going to fail undergrad, you know, like I just it's so I don't know if you need to end in years is how we are or whatever like I've just I don't know some people just aren't good test-takers. I mean if there's a lot of information I just know testing is a great way for some people to show their knowledge, but it's it's tough 15, especially if you need that Baker London, Where to go to get your next degree so that up on the show before I was like if you're worried about some of the entrance issues if that's preventing you from getting a master's like there are programs probably even at your own instincts. Are you getting your undergrad that you could get a masters without having to take the GRE scores to know if you're going to look to be successful. I'm interested even some some Universities at the running back for the grad school. They don't even look at GRE act really good

Speaker 3: program. A lot of my undergrad colleagues were planning already do it and it's one of those programs where you can easily get a 2 degrees in 5 years. If you plan out your credits, right? I didn't because I thought I would graduate forever. So I only had one class that I could double count was so nice about this program is so you know, how many credits do I actually need how many credits are the classes that I need to take to get this program? Because I think one of my friends was here to you all the credit all the classes were like three. So you have to take a lot more classes to get

Speaker 1: into you

Speaker 3: know,

Speaker 1: that's why I know that's why I think as always you have a big big decisions about getting Masters Financial is too and I mean you can do a lot there you can even you know, you can you have classes double count like you're talking about but there's also determine what kind of college is called senior rule or as an undergrad you can take grad classes. So you're not really double-counting but you just me, I only need 12 credits my last semester. So I'll take 15 in one of those will be a grad class. You can do stuff like that too for those those those things just things about U academic advisor about but okay, so tell me about the courses that you were taking, you know, it is a challenge for universities to teach big system thing. Like I can't imagine a course where it's like, hey, here's a bunch of information from the cold. There's a bunch of information from mechanical engineers a bunch of mates from now digestive process it like I can't understand what the curriculums like actually help you achieve that level of thinking.

Speaker 3: And we did have a set of like core classes and were two of those were the sort of Capstone project class. The other class was a research oriented class where you sort of did an independent study research project and there are electives and so as a systems engineer, you can do whatever you want. I took some controls class. I took another actually another project class. Where we integrated and lost the moon came out of my grad school having huge amount of breast because those project classes were talking about thermal. This is really simple radiation has met so many different topics covered in that first semester and then the end of that first semester. So we got the test on Monday. What do you DM on Friday at 5 on your sizing a mission? Like when your you don't say some scientist comes to you and says hey, I really like to design a spacecraft to go to Europa and what for Science and I think my hundred-dollar exam we were especially given the specification for an integer and parameters. Let me sleep this resolution and we're going to use it to monitor. Ships in the ocean. So I need to have some sort of temporal resolution. You know, how many satellites do you need to get that cover a Dish Satellite? How big does it need to be what sort of launch vehicle do you need to launch that math, since you know all these things you have to have the first measurement, you know, and then you can iterate as you learn more and more and do you know first second order sizing spent something for everything in the world

Speaker 1: order is almost synonymous with iteration like the first iteration of

Speaker 3: you maybe you know, maybe like you're at least getting in the right order of magnitude of

Speaker 1: Like I think one or the idea of a hundred hours. Am I mean that's I'm sure that obviously they're sleeping and things happening. So what's the name of the book Curious able to read why we sleep by Matthew Walker and you'll realize that that is an atrocious idea because you will cut years off your life. Anyways, what are pool project exams? I got to leave we talk all the time. Like I think about this idea of like how you actually learning like how you get yourself into these like project examples. It's this this is an interesting way in an exam format the kind of force you into that till like you're going to hear the problem where you right now everyone who you going to give it to doesn't know the answer and they're going to get the spots where they got to show that they know how to learn in figure stuff out and they that happened in team a project but it's a lot harder to do in an exam because you kind of have to give you going to have to shoot for the middle so that like people do okay in the exam, you know, it's not too hard. It's not too easy and they can do it in a couple hours, but with a longer exam like that like and it stay calm obviously, so you You can show that you know how to learn and then if you've been presented all the different core areas, you can then apply that have you ever heard of a reminder

Speaker 2: that I mean, I would I would have called that like a project that would take like months. I never thought I was being like there's a single exam do you had to do I don't think in grad school at anything like anything a bat like magnitude compressed into a single week. I hope that wasn't the only thing you had to worry about that week. I imagine I mean is I guess because your program was structured around space. Was that a small enough area where everything was very coordinated to be like this is what you do your last class of your degree, like go for it, you know everything else to

Speaker 3: worry about I think we were taking a lot of the same classes. This is actually the very first semester of program and get all along with this sort of curriculum and you're also given a project start Sparta Midway through the semester for this class and then through the year and the other classes. We were actually can't remember if you know anybody else. I feel like that would never happen

Speaker 1: to drink from the firehose kind of strategy. But that seems to be the hardest thing about I mean even just what you I'm sure we'll talk about your job like what you do but like in the grad school environment where yeah, okay this week we're going to talk about SolidWorks for mechanical engineers that you could spend you can spend entire career trying to learn that software and optimize it you can't you never going to so it's almost like they're going to show you all these core areas on a surface level but Steven kind of understand you may have to go kind of deep into know it would seem incredibly overwhelming I guess is what I'm saying because every week you're going to get a new tool. There's going to be it's a tool that lets you could literally spend $5,000 on it, but you're only going to get 20 to 30 and you know, you're trying to essentially just figure out how do you learn enough? It was it was it overwhelming like it did I mean to how do you do do you think like that you just did you like I just how did you think through that? Like, I'm just turning into I just got to understand. You know what it looks like be comfortable with it. I don't need to masturbate like what are you thinking when you

Speaker 3: I think everybody has their strengths and their weaknesses. So. Where they gave me the manual and said here you have a weekend and stuff like radiation software. And I know that I'm sure you know, what's what years are like, what do you mean? So so, you know, I think it's just the way to find out what I'm interested in and you're right. It's not my job to know everything my job is to get nothing formation to communicate what's needed to know. How do I use this information to make the right instrument or

Speaker 2: yeah. So let let let transition into another overwhelming thing what you got your master's degree. It's it's it's time to to get a job unless you want to go. Let's go to go for a PhD. I

Speaker 3: was like

Speaker 1: yeah, it sounds like it sounds like they would make any sense counter counter

Speaker 2: first job and what that was like then

Speaker 3: so in my project class I collaborated with principal investigator of my project was a JPL CPL actually came to our campus and did sort of the info session is advertised like, you know that whole deal and so and then I was going to be there. So I finished up my projects. I have done that actually take a semester before I graduated in December 2011 those connections if I just did the work that I was supposed to do and now I have interview and then a few weeks later. They just called and said and I thought what did I do wrong wrong with you?

Speaker 2: Since you were a child you thought this was?

Speaker 3: And then I didn't know it at the time but like I said didn't hire anybody that you're so so I was sitting at my parents house in Charlevoix in the winter. Wish I was in touch with one of my friends and just let you know what I got to do. You want to start a flying to every single job. I applied to REI. I apply to actually I got an interview at already taken. Career website with jobs on it and the company that I found was on that website. Did my resume I just kind of flooded everywhere. I could think of

Speaker 1: your what ways. Can you explain what you were like, what were you searching? What was like what I mean other websites of Michigan career page you remember

Speaker 3: I went to the career fair this year.

Speaker 1: You can tell alot. I think he has a woman having

Speaker 3: girls on those websites. I have no idea if I helped or not, but I really was like I don't care right now. If I even get a job, I just need I want to listen Ann Arbor and I will think about it later. Honestly. I was like, I need you just so happens during job. It was more of a mechanical more in line with my butt. And when I got it, I thought I'll be here for a year and then I'll be back at Nasa and then I ended up staying there for almost five years.

Speaker 1: So what was the title of that job?

Speaker 3: Engineer consulting company tire there. So I didn't flow modeling you would do actual physical scale models of stuff. So they had a team of people that would distract these models. We had a lab space test them in and then we also did computational modeling business came from just like really any application where you at need for modeling, but the biggest one at the time was our industry because all of these coal power plants were installing pollution control equipment or I think there was like 2015 or thereabouts. Deadline by which you had to meet and come into compliance. So we had a ton of work coming from our industry. So when I first started my job was to basically you flow calculations given the specification from the power company. So I had to figure out you know, we had this, you know, what's the Reynolds number make sure that the Reynolds number is in the right order of magnitude so that the model and what's actually happening in the cell where we can Ashley the model. What's the address? What's the plan? What soda is my teacher? Should we be using in this past? And it was great because is really small company. So I had a lot of responsibility really quickly. And if something wasn't available somewhere people that were building this model and say hey, can you make sure to have this or that or today? We're going to test this. So awesome.

Speaker 1: That sounds like a lot of great experience for my small business is really just being able to give you a lot of opportunity, but just do a lot of aerospace engineers going to like a cfd type situation some kind of flow modeling is that

Speaker 3: weather control Route 2

Speaker 2: Sure, it's not like what you were doing was almost similar to what like a lab would be at school. I'm not perfect but the idea of because you were in charge of all of it was like okay, we got to make the model does the model look like the actual test. We have to set up the test is everything right? And I think what you guys said, they're like being a small company clouds you to do that. Whereas in another a larger company that's doing may be focusing on one thing. It could be like one person is going to be in charge of setting up the testers me to hold other person that's in charge of actually getting the parts for that and and executing and someone else who's who's going to do the modeling and then you got to like do all the meetings in coordinate all that and everything. It's so

Speaker 1: before you start the task fingers about all the good big organization

Speaker 3: stuff. Okay, this is not compliant with the requirements that we were given requirements and we need to make a design change Rita said anything until we meet the

Speaker 1: requirements which I mean running out of time time constraints. I mean that's that's all part of being an engineer anyway, so it's cool that I mean you're a if you know your systems approach to to your job and it sounds like it's a really really well. So did you continue that the whole five years or where you were maybe with more more weight on your shoulders as you got older? Probably me no signing off on more things do it doing bigger projects and stuff, but was it most of that the five years

Speaker 3: was mostly what I did again. Other things that I did were cussing like I actually got to go to a power plant go stand in the dock and take real measurements of the full-scale thing. Yeah, as I got more used to the first flow of a project. I was able to focus more interesting thing. You know, like when I first got there the flow calculations were hard. I had to learn how to do those but by the time, you know, like 4 years or around goes out really quick and then I can move on to something more interesting in the design and what I was leaving there. I just started learning cfd. When I first got there, I turned to one of those people that did see if he had a couple people there that were like cheese and one of the guys riding his own cfd software software. So how long does it take to learn CSE thinking like, you know, how long is 2 years with like whatever you want and get a solution but you make the Renaissance end, you know, anybody can buy it and like running the garage, but you kind of got to know if you know the right things to put in to get the right answer out

Speaker 1: garbage in garbage out.

Speaker 3: Absolutely. So so I did kind of get to a point where I was really the only Engineers doing the physical models. Like if there was a physical model that needed to be done with the contract and when I wasn't doing that

Speaker 1: so

Speaker 2: you did this you did this for five years there longer you initially thought but then I change happened. Did you end up? Where you at? Now? What what happened?

Speaker 3: How old I am I was working at this company I waiting for the right opportunity ICC Network and keep my name out there came down to like truly being at the right place at the right time because I had a friend from school that I had helped him get a job somewhere else and then she got a job at last and so he was already working here and told me about a job opening so what happens and I ended up submitting my resume for a job and then another hiring manager saw my resume for another job. Turn 4 list of candidates for the resumes for like this other job found mine hold my resume out and emailed me about it. And it just so happened. It was like the same day. I got a response back from you on the cover letter updated my resume service my friend, you know, my friend said he's printed it out and put it on the desk hiring manager and you know, but then

Speaker 2: that's awesome. So Kim, can you tell us what lasp is and what they do?

Speaker 3: The laboratory at the University of Colorado Boulder. It's kind of like a JPL except. We're not a NASA Center, but we do get freshly will write a contract NASA will give see you this money and then directly funnel it to laugh. So, you know, a lot of our projects are like contracts and grants. I process

Speaker 1: all the parts about the project are all related to Nazareth like their specifications from NASA

Speaker 3: to NASA or we're writing it like in support of another we're running a small piece of that eventually. Other people that we know of science problems that we're trying to solve and life cycle. If you will where we have science division that is full of people with the issues that you know, like I lost you doing a science question. I would like answered please and so are the two principal investigator. They hire us as a hundred years within last to help carry out and design and build that thing and then we also have a whole mission operations and DS systems. So when's this why we can operate that we can take the data and put it up the way you want and give it back to the p i kind of a full cycle. People are awesome.

Speaker 2: So are you guys are you guys are designing instrumentation that's going on satellites or like the parts of satellites themselves. I'm guessing.

Speaker 3: A lot of UTIs and so we have put instrument honesty and Beyond. They say

Speaker 1: it's really cool. What a cool guy gets Rich. What's atmosphere other places? How do I crazy to think about? So I guess we're on this team. Do you said I guess what are you? What are you working on? What are your responsibilities? What's your title?

Speaker 3: I am in the engineering Division and within the division there is a system of hearing department that I am in there's actually a super good hearing from you within the department. And right now I'm doing really like Systems engineering on an instrument that will hopefully one day go to Europe

Speaker 1: okay with it seems so obvious what we retire all the time. But communication I thought this all you're you're talking all kinds of people and I love I love the organization structure. It sounds okay. We got the science group and we got two phds in the science group. We got the engineering group and that I loved it sounds like the most like literal naming convention and organization I've ever heard nothing is perfect ever been everyone knows what's going on is not weird names that I you know exactly who you know who's in why you don't have enough. You don't need like descriptions. I'm not okay. Well, this is the systems engineering group Okay cool. So right I mean you're you're bringing in a bunch of pieces. I guess we can talk about that.

Speaker 3: TI and then a lot of times we get brought on to do proposals to create what's called a science tree civility Matrix asking their science questions and then breaking that down into what an instrument needs to be. What are the very top level requirements and specifications for that instrument. What is the performance need to be? Yeah. It kind of Park is back to like I need to know like a little bit about like U Visa, so I need to worry about Mass spectrometry. I need to know how the circuit used to work to get that defines us the right Dina back

Speaker 2: sounds like you are going to be learning something that once I imagine once this was his project over the next one's coming down there could be something totally different. How how do you go about learning what you have to learn and do what you have to do it to do your job

Speaker 3: learn a lot by just talking people and asking questions. I often will say is a meeting having that sort of like initiative and vulnerability in something that I've really had to develop over time, but it pays off in the end because then use your you accomplish your mission faster situations where it's at and try to figure something out on my own. Scared to approach the person that I know has the answer. And then I just sit and it just becomes like a cycle of how I learn how to be that person that just says asking those questions that other people might not ask.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker 1: I think that's what that's one of the hard part about being in a field that's higher level like on a technical scale. You know, you're not down in the weeds not in the science. You're up. You're up top looking about trying to connect all the stuff be the glue that binds it all together, but you by definition you're not going to know everything and so I get sounds like what I'm hearing from you is like if if this is an interesting thing for those listening like this idea of being so you got to be uncomfortable with not knowing and it's a skill like that you sound that you learn like a being vulnerable of that work cuz it's it does feel like that. It feels it feels like you're sticking your head out when you're in a meeting you're saying hey, it sounds like all six of you get it but I don't care about that. Yeah, I'm going to ask the question. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Speaker 1: which is true of all learning. You know, I mean if you can you continue to learn like it's going to be uncomfortable. I don't know I think you know people who like to be really Technical and keep going to technical I thought you know, I think even go down that path I don't know if it's a good skill to have to be able to be vulnerable and be comfortable with that and ask questions and people people people respectable for it. I mean there's there's time and place to ask them if it's really busy meeting and this is obviously time to ask a 20-minute question like there's time and place to ask me a question like okay, maybe later. I'll go ask Emily her John whatever, you know this specific question. Is there a technical x-ray like maybe if you do that offline, but it's important to know when you need to be asking questions cuz it's always a hit always bite you in the butt when you're in the meeting you there talk about like especially when you're trying to be the glue that binds it all together cuz otherwise what you don't know and then the project goes to launch two years later and there's obvious big piece missing and you go. Oh, yeah crap because I didn't want to ask how that was supposed to come together. Like it's a silly situation, but it's hard in the moment. I totally agree.

Speaker 3: Lot of credit to the last because we're kind of an academic institution. So kind of have an open door policy the culture I think is really conducive to. Type of like introspection in learning. So I think it's a good fit for me. I mean in and out as soon as we're driving in

Speaker 1: a good atmosphere that

Speaker 3: that's more of a project manager role and but luckily not right now

Speaker 2: you are obviously getting to work on really cool stuff to your your way to work and I was going to space you're achieving that childhood dream right there off of working on things are Going to space at least is is that all that you need I guess to get up every morning be excited about your job or is there something else that that just about what you do or what you're doing is really what gets you excited to go to work.

Speaker 3: I mean, I haven't yet applied for the astronaut program. They did have around earlier this year and then we all got so I still do want to do that. I still want to fly. I have no idea how far I'll get it but even just want you I do want you in the future. But right now yeah, I would say I'm pretty sew-in in my role and I'm really fortunate that I get to work on this planetary science Mission. It's going to be really long but it's going to be really cool actually get there. So it is just about every think about the fact that I'm working on something that nobody has ever done before no one's ever gone to Europa something.

Speaker 2: That's like, I think everyone in ejection said when I drink lots of things as being like new and unique and ever and ever having been done before because if they've been done before we doing again, but but what you're doing is it doing something new but you know millions of miles away totally out there. I think that's a really unique place to be in and to get to do that obviously like It's a limited number of people who get to do that. You're the first person we've had on the first person. I think I know of who actually works on something is going to space sorta like I say, but I guess we are going to get any place to be and it's awesome. That is that that you find fulfillment in that in that you're you're excited about the job that you get to do. Like a lot of people don't divide people never even get to that point in their careers interesting that happening now free now is because I

Speaker 3: awesome I had a lot of help and a lot of things go my way to get to get me where I am right now.

Speaker 1: Well, I guess we get close to the hour practice or to wrap some things up one last rush and a half for you. I'm something I like to ask people is if you were put yourself back in your shoes first second year. What advice would you give yourself what you know, what what things would you whisper in your ear and tell yourself? If you could go back with there be anything or stay the course or are you what what do you think you tell yourself?

Speaker 3: I know it's hard, but I would have probably what's it like Ricky on a little bit closer for undergrad because when I came out of knowledge curriculum at the time was very Arrow Cedric and I know I graduated between arrow and space and then it's hard like I don't want to say that I should have studied like mechanical engineering or electrical engineering but part of what I find by lack and like this part of what we kind of already talked about with learning stuff is I have like this threat but I don't have a lot of stuff in one thing that I can really point to in space capacity you know about mechanical engineering has done sort of a like a disciplined like that like Applications for

Speaker 1: your influence and hopefully for those listing if you're thinking about it, you know that this nugget can be something that they take with them too. And you know, it's it's it's nice to start with the idea of you know, you know where you want to get too. And so and it's just kind of optimizing that too but 22.2, you know what you know, your position assistant integration role is largely why breath that allow death, I guess that's kind of what it is. So I know it sounds like you know why at times it may seem like you want more mechanical electrical sounds like you might be, you know, the perfect balance. Anyways, it's just you cuz you're good. You're always going to something right? I mean when your the Jack of all trades at you. You're always going to try to do the work like that. If you can know your your your power is in your breath your death. Hard to find a balancer. But thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. I mean it's been super and sitting over there tonight. I think this this ties to hold it says the whole new aspect of engineering that I hope those listening really appreciate and understand that there is Aerospace. They're going to outer space. There's a there's a lot they can be done with different engineering degrees and open up a a wide variety open need a wide variety of things but it still comes back to life corporate goals. We talked a lot on the show this idea having good communication skills cuz idea of learning how to learn that there are these fundamental pillars that really like hold up all engineers and vegetation great insights about how how you do that and how that how you learned how to do that and become that person even even when it was uncomfortable. So thanks so much for your time. I really really appreciate it.

Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: Hopefully hear about you and say some day. That would be

Speaker 3: awesome.

Speaker 2: awesome

Speaker 1: Never go man was a great episode Austin to talk to Sally. So I'm not super familiar with so I have no idea what that is the most important phone which is good. That means we're exploring and and getting uncomfortable as you talked about and try new things. But yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2: I definitely felt like he even steps. I can relate to that like everything about asking stupid questions then like, I don't know anything about space like it's not on Earth but but her point about that I think was really good because when you're in a space where you have to learn lots of different things or or even if you just a new job like you don't know everything you're not expected to know everything and you have to ask a lot of stupid questions to be able to learn if you don't need to be sitting there banging your head against the wall trying to figure it out and and sometimes you I'm in their nose. Questions, you can say that there are there are sometimes they'll be people who will treat you like. You're a stupid question that off those people. They have a certain personality type of person and you have to not worry about what they say because there are any people out there going to be more than happy to help you and go and Beyond Beyond to teach you to do what you need to learn and so I think it's really important takeaway and Associate Hariri, what you doing, like a wide breadth of stuff of I have all these different type of players I've know about like I have to learn about all those because I didn't I wasn't all that in school humble yourself a little bit and go out there and say, okay. I'm just going to you know, I'm going to go for it ask I need to know and it's if I'm going to be out of it quicker than I would be just doing on

Speaker 1: it before I mean even talked about that his approach to you know, being a learner and you know put putting yourself out there you cured me on that and that's a good great advice. But you also find people like Justin Ayers and their previous episode 7 or some like that work like you find the people that have systems of how they go about helping people like just like I I think I try to think what I like about you interact with someone who's like difficult interact with that. We just don't connect. Well, I guess just that's just how you know statistics work. Sometimes they're going to be outliers one way, but I think there's a lot of people that also swing the other way to like that are really really helpful and really really want to help you. And so I think it's important to think about that too and maybe this one interaction don't let that one interaction or a couple interactions do not keep asking for help other people out there that really do want to ask for help. but yeah I did so at the thing that I love most Italian our conversation with extremely we talked about after we stopped the episode and it has a lot to do with kind of what's going on today in terms of privilege and understanding that you know for people regardless of any choice they made they start off at a different point in the race than others and you know I think it's important to acknowledge that you know it your achievements I'll have large effect due to where you start the race you know your ability to finish the race you know if you only have to run a hundred miles to get there in a cup of middle-class home Baldwin parents and he's kind of things they help like it's it's just how it is I think it's not it's not saying people that start the race a little further head are bad people anything like that it's just that it's important to acknowledge that when you do that so that you can help others who just didn't get as lucky like it it's it's it's just what it is luck of the draw and it's That it is, but that's what it is. And it it it doesn't help if you don't acknowledge it and once you acknowledge that you can start the help and sell it really talked about that and she had a lot of great insights and I really really appreciate appreciate that conversation with her into that was extra nice to have everything from from this episode which it on recording but at least I can bring it up now.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really important. Like I have not faced many problems are roadblocks in my life that have set me back in many ways. I think it's important to realize that people have all different backgrounds like you said in different starting points, and we actually think about that. So she what we do whether we're in position to help someone who is Who is younger than us an upcoming or a colleague than us or if it were the position of hiring thinking all these things because especially once you move from Academia into when you're learning into the job field that can change and if you have to think about what our role plays in that when our responsibility is since we're honest, Everyone's a human understand. She's cool people have ups and downs and all sorts of things in life, and we got to help each other out.

Speaker 1: Roman thanks for being my teammate on the show making it happen but blast enough air space vents all the time until next time by everybody.

Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode of engineer your career with Troy Bauman and Brennan tymrak. For more information about the show visit our website at UIC podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with drawing. I if you or someone, you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey, I would like to be on the show go on the website send us a short bio and we made it to invite you to come on and share your story. And finally if you want to show your support, please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice.