Speaker 3: When is episode of engineer your career we talked to Adam heinzen and embedded controls engineer at Polaris Industries or he leads projects for off-road Powersports applications Adam with bachelor's and master's degrees in mechanical engineering from the University of Minnesota Twin Cities and previously worked for 8 years at General Motors most recently designing and developing engine control algorithms for an Innovative active thermal management system. Our conversation with atoms are longest yet and covers a wide range of topics from how to manage unexpected career changes within a company what to consider when looking for a completely new job. There's something in this one for everyone so welcome Adam cyc. Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of engineer your career. As always. I'm still burning Tamarac

Speaker 1: and I'm Still Troy. I don't know your guess you get to pick lucky listener, you get to pick

Speaker 3: at least people can pronounce one of your names. They can't even really pronounce both of my name's if someone reads it, but that's okay.

Speaker 1: That's okay run in in in in in in in in cuz you just kind of keep going with in in in in in in

Speaker 3: in Stroh. You're not the first one to say that though. So just got going back. But today speaking of engines actually best Segway yet. We've got a demising on the show who can probably tell us a little bit about that and all the cool stuff that he has done so far in his career So Adam, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: Thank you. Hello everybody.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Thanks for coming on so I guess no one really knows Adam and I used to work together. He's since moved on to bigger and better things but work cited him on the show to talk about about all the different stuff that he's doing a toe. Kick us off and tell us how you got to where you are today.

Speaker 2: Okay, so I grew up in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. I went to the University of Minnesota Twin Cities class of 2009 for my undergrad. I got an undergraduate degree bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering and I said, I was class of 2009 suppose. I should back up a minute and say I have been fascinated with cars ever since like 4th grade and my other interests what we had a class tonight grade called my future where it was like, you know, what careers are out there. What are the requirements? How do you go about getting those and my other interests at the time were music? Architecture and I probably wasn't really good enough at either of those to excel in those fields, but I was pretty good at math and science and engineering also paid more. So that's kind of seal the deal. So I knew I wanted to be a mechanical engineer and I knew that I wanted to eventually make it into the Auto industry for my career path, so I went to Did my undergraduate I? Thought I wanted to do like mechanical design stuff. but it turns out that the class that really caught my interest was the Introduction to System Dynamics and controls. So that kind of then became a call. This is really fun. I enjoy doing this. I want to take more classes like this. So that sort of became the Sub-discipline of mechanical engineering that I started to specialize in.

Speaker 3: So you were taken like an introduction to systems and controls types things earlier on that was something that like for me and my education I didn't get too late. Like there was something I've been like this is interesting graduated too late. So that's awesome that like you got that earlier on and in your degree program in that that you can able to go down that path and then yeah, I think I think it's really cool thing like getting exposure tomorrow. Those things earlier on can really help shape where you're going while you still have time to make kind of a shift in your education.

Speaker 1: Yeah, what year was

Speaker 2: that class? I took that as a summer class. Probably between my sophomore and Junior years. I took classes a couple Summers just so I could thank some credits and have a little bit more time to. Explore other stuff or try to get out early. I don't know what I want didn't really have a lot of us going on during summer. So

Speaker 1: I know I definitely recommend for those like stuff like that. If you can't get that before those listening like when is summer a college is a lot of fun but usually like a totally different seeing you I don't I don't know about U of M in Minnesota is a huge university. So the summer is I've heard so different and then during the school year, but I mean imagine Institute in Somersworth, different experience and I think it's a cool one that people should be interested in trying I would definitely say that everyone at least at Michigan Tech and stuff at that spot them are they really enjoyed it, I think I probably true for other universities to let makes a lot of sense, you know, it's a cool opportunity. It's different being in the in the sunshine and stuff, but So it's here. It's after your second year into your third year, you took this kind of pivotal class. What were your steps after that too? Kind of a line you down that path. Did you go talk to you in advisor Professor? I guess we're steps to try and kind of holding in the last couple years on that that path

Speaker 2: as I recall. As you're registering for classes, you get a pretty good idea of what the course offerings are going into my junior year. That was really like most of junior year was just required mechanical engineering courses and actually this System Dynamics and controls course was also one of the required ones. so I didn't really have a lot of free choice until maybe spring semester of junior year or fall semester of senior year But once that rolled around, you know, we had to take like at least one higher-level LabCorp. So I took the motion control lab and there was a robotics course that was pretty cool that had a decent amount of Sort of controller Dynamics content in it and and then alongside of that. I was also on the lookout for anyting sort of Automotive adjacent unlike the universities in Michigan like Michigan Tech, Michigan State University of Michigan. Automotive classes didn't really make up a huge part of the curriculum. It's it's a much bigger thing in. In the Michigan school just because of their proximity to the industry, you know,

Speaker 1: almost thinking about going to a university even at the undergrad level. If you have an interest in a certain field like thinking like using that as a decision criteria, like if you're not in the midwest or whatever and you like love cars in California is blowing up in the automotive industry announced that may change but you know in the automotive industry for example is going to a Michigan School of benefit if you're trying to get Automotive experience, that's a really interesting thought at U of M Minnesota. You felt like you really had to kind of look around and search for Stuff. Related I mean if that's going to be hard to do when you don't technically know what you're looking for. Were you able to find like a professor or something that can help you or how did you become a navigate that space

Speaker 2: at the same time? I was lucky enough to get an undergraduate research scholarship where you get part of your tuition paid for to go be an undergraduate research assistant in one of the labs and one of the labs there was the center for diesel research, which was led by Professor David ketelsen and they have done a lot of foundational research and especially diesel emissions and especially particulate emissions. So I got to work around engines a little bit for that. That was pretty cool. I knew that Professor Kittleson taught on internal combustion engines course, you kind of go through all the systems of the engine and no you learn a little bit about how they're modeled and how they work. What are some of the performance parameters that kind of thing that course wasn't offered. So because of the prerequisites it was really only an option for undergraduates in their senior year, but it was only offered every other year. So I wasn't able to take it during my undergrad but that's actually kind of a nice segue. So I wanted to work in the Auto industry, but as someone who is graduating in 2009, that was basically the worst year possible to be graduating to try to get a job in the Auto industry. GM and Chrysler were both bankrupt at the time, you know Ford was very nearly. So I had to kind of assess my options and say well I can either try to get a job in a different industry that I'm not really excited about but even that's not a sure thing a bunch of my friends had a hard time finding jobs around that same time. or and I think some of your previous guests have talked about this the University of Minnesota offer to program where you could start taking courses toward your Masters in your during your senior year, which Was the option I ended up taking I said, you know, I'm going to try to get myself more credentialed make myself a more attractive candidate to hire and also wait a couple years out and hopefully a job market will be better then.

Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's a tough thing that I think a lot of people who were at that point of graduating in that time frame. We're looking at it and being like what do I do? Because people people who are who had recently graduated right before it all happened and then got laid off as a result of the Great Recession or who graduating in the middle of it. Like I was a tough thing for a lot of people I think there are people out there who are still almost recovering for that someone in their their careers today, even though I think we're nowhere over 10 years out of it the effects of that and it's like going into getting a master's degree or maybe people who work finishing a master's degree and said to go to get a PhD or something like like education can be a panda bear Refuge almost in times like that because it's like well, I'm still learning skills. I'm still in college and went to Stephanie start paying alone's back just yet and maybe I can wait this out until people start hiring again. So it was definitely a fortune for a lot of people but that's that's awesome that you were able to take advantage of that and to kind of Explorer this other area that you're interested in that you missed out on on your finger here

Speaker 1: wondering about what what other options are in-depth guide if I agree that education is is definitely a path to have something to do that's productive while still bring life to some ways, but Okay. So the Masters option makes sense you thinking about it you go and start talking advisors and you realize you can do the senior rule thing where you can actually take some graduate courses. That's awesome. These select those I guess I'll talk to you a little bit about how you frame. Your master's degree coursework Masters research. How did you decide between that and what did that I'm experienced look like for you

Speaker 2: in hindsight. I probably would have been a better fit for a coursework masters, but foolishly I decided I want some of that research experience some of that hashtag research life. So I went with a dissertation or thesis based Masters one of the influencing factors there as well. Was that one of the professors who would kind of just recently been hired into the department Professor song Chuan son had previously worked at General Motors research and development. So he was Sort of the the auto guy at the University of Minnesota mechanical engineering department know he'd come from industry. Although, you know, you can debate about whether research and development is really industry will maybe talk touch on that a little bit later, but And most importantly I figured he would probably know people there and that's especially important because for those of you who are familiar the the Detroit area automakers are actually pretty Limited in the kind of schools that they recruit from. So without the kind of personal connection. I think I would have had a really hard time getting my resume looked at but you know, they recruit pretty heavily from Michigan Michigan State Kettering Michigan Tech. I think Ohio State there were a lot of people from there, but I knew very few people from my alma mater who worked at GM. So that's it like you were saying that's another thing to keep in mind when choosing a school but I really had no way of knowing that's recruiting pipelines were in place when I was choosing my undergraduate school. And I really only kind of figured that out once I had been hired by GM and saw the and all of the college football logos and everyone's cubes and realize like oh 90% of people here are from the same for schools. And I didn't go to one of those schools and I probably would have had an easier time getting hired if I had

Speaker 1: it specially for those that are you know, anybody even a bachelor's degree now like you can also pivot at The Graduate level to a different school. But again, you know what? I mean 20, if you don't know you don't know I know I know what you mean you learn your past. I think at the time I mean based on what you know, it sounds like I made a good decision. I've been trying that was going that work. I'll go with somebody else can help me get connections. So that's that's also another coming to get you as you too. So so you were able to to then be a research Professor under doctor's son everything. We said so tell what else about what that experience was like it was at like a 50% coursework 15 I research and what was your

Speaker 2: research on? Yeah, it was pretty close to 50/50. The nice thing about the coursework was I got a chance to take courses that I didn't have time for an undergrad or that I didn't have the prerequisites for so I took a more advanced control Siri course, I was able to take the internal combustion engines class and I learned a lot in that and it's hurting me really well throughout my career. And Professor son my advisor. He actually taught a Powertrain controls course based on stuff that he had learned while he was at General Motors R&D and in hindsight a lot of it was Really basic, but it gave me a really good grounding. And familiarity with what are the kinds of things that we have to control on the vehicle? And what are some approaches to be able to do that? So I was closer the coursework side. And then the research side the other reason why I had wanted him as my advisor was that he did Automotive based research. So my Master's thesis was on the iterative learning control of an electro hydraulic fully flexible valve actuation system. so it heard of learning control is just a control technique when you do something repetitively you can use each iteration or try to learn and apply those learnings to Future Cycles Automotive valve train is a great example of that and a fully flexible valve actuation system is Probably more commonly known as a camera system and this is an idea that's been kicked around for. I don't know 30 or 40 years probably the dude at Koenigsegg thinks he's going to be able to bring one to Market. I haven't really kept up with that but it's something that has been talked about at the research level for a long time the idea they are being that by removing the camshaft and instead having independent actuators for your valves. You have a lot more flexibility in the lift timing and duration and even activation pattern of the valves. So there's a lot of cool stuff you can do with that in terms of engine strategy. That I won't really get into here. But if you want my thesis is freely available to University of Minnesota digital repository. So feel free to go check that out. Give me those

Speaker 1: sweetener. Where is nice the first advertisement on the show. I love it that's brilliant

Speaker 2: immediately after submitting the final draft and there's nothing I can do about it now. So weird word of the wise proofread it just one extra

Speaker 1: time. That's okay. I'm sure you're the only one that noticed, you know that, you know, you're able to get some at least some good experience. I working on a control problem. That's yeah, I mean a research-based a question of Relativity it into the spaces, you know how to research so, you know, I think it's fair to say that you're going to definitely in research work on some things that are probably not relevant but maybe in the future and so I think that's that's it's interesting to see yourself reflected in that space. I mean now that you Sonic application space I would say being in uniting R&D and you are you so you're it's it sounds like I just listened to you. It sounds like a person who's realize that he wants to be in applications based on Research. So just for those listening you listen to that and think about that and yourself like it when you talk about what you do, like is it like all this is futuristic. It doesn't really just because like when I talk to people who are research space They Don't Care About It applicable to be there like, this is cool. New thing. Like what in the heck is it usable? I don't care. It's just like that's that's the research mind. It doesn't matter if it's applicable School in New so I'm working on it. Someone gave me money to work on it like that's going to go and do an engine. Yeah. It's kind of cool side project, but we'll see how you like to hear how you describe an atom and for those are listening so that when you think about how you think about things like maybe can help you decide should I be more R&D should I be? More industry like how do you think about new technology? Is it fun and exciting regardless of whether that's actually useful like that may be hiring these faces something you're interested in right

Speaker 3: also be like doing research. Even if you find out that something research isn't something you want to do. We can still be a good opportunity to like get acquainted with a particular system or a technique or sound like some skills along the way that you can then use towards something that will be, you know production eyes and be able to run one Taxi by and used because those research projects agency all of them, but a lot of them that are based on something like Automotive or something else do I factory in a lot of those nose pieces of a real-life productionize system are components or whatever it is it so you still are able to get some experience with that and it just to get you know exposure to different techniques of what people are doing in there an automotive. Especially there's some things that aren't there, crossed it that you can get in another field. That would be good be kind of similar. It's okay, at least I've learned a little bit about what goes on in that field through this That at least gives me a better understanding of when I try to actually go and get a job and

Speaker 1: it's farther down the rebels are they continue to elaborate on this but like your description of understanding a cam system and whether or not you need to cam what Avengers are they going through that project like you really dig deep? And so yeah, maybe you never need to go that deep again, but you you're now so comfortable with Timing Systems that you go you apply that knowledge in your daily life in this really beneficial and so it's in the same way that we all as engineer go through calc 3 or a lot of us go through calc 3 and it's like, oh my gosh, I never I hate this I never really want to go to sleep for some but it's like for a lot of people you go that deep into three-dimensional calculus, but you feel a lot more comfortable with one dimensional calculus. Once you do it. It's like sometimes it's good to push yourself Way Beyond and get uncomfortable in that space because then everything that the foundation today you get really comfortable with by association until there's other ways to look at the benefits. They're at least you know, now that I think about learning and struggle that's something I try to keep him in retrospect. As I struggle. Yeah, definitely. Okay. So you're you doing this to the project is starting to get toward graduation graduation of your Masters. Let's let's talk to that kind of transition and how that went for you. I can start to get to get a real job as people like to say

Speaker 2: right? Yep. So touching a little bit on what you were talking about. I I found that staying motivated in a research environment was difficult because the problem is so open-ended in your kind of only accountable to yourself. There aren't really deadlines are there are with classes but I was lucky in that I was I had a good adviser and I was working on a on this project with a PhD student as well. So I did make some pretty good progress with with their help. I spent a lot of a lot of late nights in the sub-basement of the engineering Library looking up a really fundamental SAE papers from like the 1950s were they were figuring out all this about stuff? I wrote and submitted and got accepted a journal article. As well as a conference paper and those two together sort of form the backbone of my thesis with sort of some background stuff in the front and some you no conclusions and implications at the back and then that was kind of my thesis. I think it's maybe Are all 50 pages or something like that? It's been awhile since I've looked at it. But so as this was going on my advisor knew that I wanted to work in the outdoor industry. And so and he also knew that I preferred something a little bit more applied. So he reached out to some of his contacts at GM and passed along my resume. The first job I got an interview for in this was this a probably only mean something to Brennan, but it was at Advanced powertrain engineering. which is not really research. It's more like the early applied phase at General Motors. And so I flew out there had an all-day interview and flew back the same night. That was a really long really exhausting day. I also missed the last bus back to campus so I had to like walk from downtown. Which in my dress shoes which made the day even longer? and they seem like they like me they wanted to hire me but their business unit that put under a hiring freeze. So I was kind of back to square one on the job front which was scary because I had the interview and maybe March in a graduations in may just like well, I'm going to be done with school and not have a job unless I find something pretty soon here. Luckily, there was another position at GM that had opened up in this was in research and development with my advisors former colleagues. So I flew out and had another interview. With them and because they were in a different business unit. They different rules about hiring. So I was actually presenting my conference paper at the American Controls conference in San Francisco. And it would have been June late June of 2011 and I was staying with a friend who is working on her PhD at Berkeley. And that was when I got the phone call that they were going to offer me the job. It was weird to be, you know, kind of wrapping up presenting my paper by this point. I already had my diploma and already submitted my thesis and it was a huge relief to say. Hey, we're going to be offering you this job. So then the next month was kind of a whirlwind getting all of that stuff figured out in all the onboarding and relocation cuz you know GM was paying to move me out to Michigan. I need to buy a car as you guys both probably know there's not really a good way to live in the Detroit area without a car and I had made it all the way through grad school without one. So I bought a car and got enough stuff to get me through the first couple weeks and drove with my mom the 12 hours out to Detroit maybe a week before my job started looked at some apartments. Was staying in a hotel for maybe three weeks and then my head my first day of work at GM R&D

Speaker 1: this cream and I think one thing that I really like you did start early. So I see that as a PhD student now, like I see a lot of people I've been in grad school forever and one of the things I've seen it a lot of people graduate and that's good. I mean that I'm able to provide feedback and typically people in grad school. They they wait until like they've submitted their paper and they're done to start the job search and I get that like, I've been there like it's so dang busy trying to write those 50 pages and get them right and get everything spelled right and get all the day and graphs formatted correctly and get all the crap together get all you can tell your citation that you forgot to do it properly from the start from your what review install you bring it all together, you're super swamped and it's like I don't have time to start the job search, but of course they would happen to a lot of people if they get to that point where they're like, man, I just submit my papers accepted. I am appreciated. Oh crap. I'm now starting my job search right and companies expressly big companies take forever to hire people. Even if you got lucky in the next day you had an interview like you're still months from money. It's okay. If you don't even visit your brother going to grad school like you got to start month ahead cuz they even though they try and turn around like you need you want to be interviewing like in are you going to be exact accepting jobs like two or three months before at least two or longer two or three months before you finished it? Otherwise, I guess just going to be a nightmare and it's going to be a huge financial crunch cuz there's this. Of I'm done with school that when my first paycheck comes and that's a long. And you got to pay for a lot of stuff in that. So, it sounds like you're able to kind interview and and get that sorted but kind of kind of got close there. It sounds like yeah,

Speaker 2: definitely. Yes why I was really lucky that I was able to find the job and it was at my number one choice in employer. So now I started GM R&D and I was the only person in my group and maybe the only person on my floor who didn't have a Ph.D. I was hired as part of a program called to transfer technology through people. So the idea was that I would work with technology or project in R&D and then move with that closer down to production. Which is a really good idea. I was not a Great fit for the kind of work they were doing there. I think which isn't to say that I didn't learn a lot but You know what? I would ask my co-workers. So, you know, what's what's something cool that you guys have worked on? This made it into production and no one had an answer to that question because in the research environment as I'm sure you're familiar with Troy you try a lot of stuff and a pretty small percentage of it actually works

Speaker 1: goes like, you know, whether or not you're going to try anything. I mean just so some great companies they they would do their own research. Some of them do research essentially by acquisition. They just buy start up companies like there's different ways, but essentially to be us a company that survives long-term. You need to be thinking long-term you need to think about what's going to make us relevant 20-30 years from now and you need to be paying the cost a day to be successful then if you're a big company and so it's the hisses big question of one what's relevant. I mean just picking that direction is hard enough alone. Let it let alone actually being successful in developing that techno. Is it a lot of factors that play there? So I totally agree that there's a different mindset in research first house the application space industry of what is is it successful if we fail in research mode if you can be very successful failing all the time for sure some people hate that and it sounds like that was one of those people like me Adam, you're not an idea Guy where you are because you can definitely pick the space if you're going to be our in like it's going to be a lot of a lot of failure for the cause and that's just as part of it.

Speaker 2: But you know, so it was kind of hard to see the connection between the work that I was doing and is it even going to make a difference, you know, is it ever going to be able to make it into a car where I can tell my family? Hey, here's what I worked on. But I was starting to starting to kind of get the hang of it a little bit and then about 9 months into my job. R&D was hit with a like a 20% layoff and I was the new guy in the group. So is this in in in R&D this this may shock you Brennan and R&D we had offices with doors, which meant that when my boss and his boss boss came into my office and close the door behind them. I had a pretty bad feeling what was going to be happening. So they were like look, you know, your your position has been eliminated effective, you know, maybe a month and a half or two months from now. But you can stay and play to GM if you can find another job within the company. so that kind of started out the second round of of job search in basically the last year and that was a pretty stressful time as well. You know, I was figuring out okay. Do I have enough money saved up to? Buy out my lease and move back home if I can't find another job here, like what's next but I interviewed at maybe four or five positions. inside GM One of them was like working on GT power. I think there was another one in. Customer care and aftersales they were they were all over the company.

Speaker 1: Was it a lot different to interview internally. I mean so for those like we're listening we're in a company like while I wonder if I should move within the company is that process of Elijah mean you're an adult was just referring to the GM, but I'm curious as your thoughts, you know going immediately from firing external to than hiring internal what your Reflections are on the difference is there.

Speaker 2: It was a little bit different parley the questions they ask you are different because you're you're not someone who's fresh out of college. So they're going to ask you more about your work experience cuz you have some of that and also because hiring internally the A lot of the selection process has kind of taken care of right? They don't have a huge pile of resumes from people from all over the world, you know other companies. afraid of college to look through having been already hired by the company that does a certain amount of the wedding for them. I think. So it's probably I shouldn't say probably it's definitely easier to get another job inside the company. Once you're already there.

Speaker 3: That's a good observation that like once you're in in some ways like you can be in. Depending on the size your company. I think I can still be an opportunity. There still can be a lot of competition GM, you know, you're dealing with thousands of Engineers working there and other similar companies outside of Automotive related company. There could be thousands of people still working at that company. So I need job internally could still have until at least tens of applicants which could you know, it's still going to be interviewing, you know, 5 to 10 people or have ran it is so there is still some some competition there but like you said like the wedding the extra love that and you don't have to prove that you're good enough to work at that company that there's someone like they want now you're going to have to prove like do you have like the skills for this job? How can you relate what you know about the company to this position? You have a little bit of Insider knowledge kind of already of what someone like you looking for, especially associate a big company that may have a very standardized like hiring process. They may have a certain set of here's the questions. We ask, you know, the bank of questions we pull from when we ask someone and you may have already seen some of those especially if you're doing like interviews for multiple positions, Company, I could be the same questions like you're saying over and over again. So you may get some opportune to work on that. May I think even though like you're in there is still a little bit of like a I still have to stop to do something to set me apart. It's not that soda get the door anymore. But now it's like to get you know, I completely through the door into the next room.

Speaker 2: Right and I will definitely say I I'm not great at the the ladder climbing aspects of the of the career like I I wasn't really looking for a new position. I had to find one, you know, and you'll see that a little bit later. We'll talk about that some more too. So the job I ended up taking was as a calibration specialist and that was like totally different from R&D because you're in the car is basically every day. And you're working on products. That's a year or two away from being shipped to customers. So that's like a very Hands-On you can see in real time. How the work you're doing effective vehicle that the company's actual going to make and so that was a way better fit for me. So I did that job for maybe a year-and-a-half for a little bit more than that.

Speaker 1: Can you add reminder elaborating a little bit more on calibration systems, you can calibrate for it so cute. So you just generally talk about like what it's like

Speaker 2: I don't want to spoil it too much for your your co-host when when his time comes but I will I will expand on that a little bit so calibration in the automotive industry is basically the the process of taking software and tuning that software for a given vehicle to make the vehicle do act a certain way cording to what your goals are for that individual vehicle. So like at a GM the V6 engine went into 10 or 15 different products and all of those vehicles have different tire sizes and weights and desire driving Dynamics, whether it's luxurious 40 or whatever. So I was I was in the engine calibration group. So you're calibrating the software that controls the engine and you know, that software might be shared not just for that engine but also for four cylinder or 8-cylinder engines and even within the different 6 cylinder engines, those are all different. So you need to characterize the engine and embed those engines characteristics in the calibration set the engine runs and vehicle has good driveability. and you also meet emissions and you're compliant to the on board diagnostic rules What's your something that in R&D and in Academia? I never even really heard or thought about that and that's like probably 50% of what? Production software and calibration is is just how do we make the vehicle legal to sell in the United States? Cuz there's a lot of laws about that. I'm so I was working on. I calibrated the Spark knock detection Tork model and control cam phasing active fuel management oil and air conditioning subsystems So and that was a lot and it was really overwhelming to learn if there's one thing I could impart to your listenership. It would be not to be surprised or freaked out when you start a job. And you feel like you have no idea what you're doing for like the first year or year-and-a-half. Cuz I wasn't prepared for that. You know, I had been really good in school. I always felt like I knew what was going on and then I got thrown into industry and even though I had a really solid engines background and I I knew how all the stuff worked when you're starting a new job. And I think you guys have talked about this more teaches you how to say thanks and how to do a particular job. So when you go to the particular job need to learn all of that domain specific knowledge And unlike in school. It's not really going to be fed to you. You just sort of me to absorb it by osmosis or by, you know, having your coworker show you how to do stuff and I found it really easy or tempting to freak out and feel like I've no idea what I'm doing. They're going to find out they're going to fire me. But then I was in a meeting after being in this job like maybe a year-and-a-half and somebody asked a question and without thinking I just answer the question. I realize like weight. I've been learning how to do my job this whole time and without noticing it because you learn kind of so gradually. Now I know what I'm doing and I'm good at it now. Yeah, it's like it's like mr. Miyagi in the Karate Kid. Do you know where he's teaching the kids karate but the kid doesn't know he's teaching him cry when you going to teach me karate. So that's a lesson that I've definitely taken with myself and I wish someone had told me to look out for that because then I probably wouldn't have been so worried during those first that first year and a half as a calibrator. And of course, I was probably predisposed to be a little nervous because I gotten laid off from my previous position at GM. So I already coming into the job wasn't feeling super secure about my job, but it ended up working out

Speaker 1: fine to luckily. I mean tying a back your timing was one of your sub system than you probably felt pretty good on timing. So you at least had one technical error, you know, you can count on me. What's which is great but then you get all this other stuff in the end. There's definitely an aspect of an engineering jobs. Were you just overloaded with stuff too much to do and if you don't learn any of that in undergrad, I mean you learn like I mean when you're finishing Masters, it's not like you're really really busy and you got a lot to do but that's all stuff that's going to get done. Like the thing for me with engineering is like you have so much stuff. You're never going to get done right? Like the thesis of your Masters. It's going to get done. It has to get done but at work the hard thing from you then during is like I have a thousand things on my list. I guarantee 900 of them will never ever get done even though they're still stressing me out cuz they're still on my list. Like it's like this weird comfortable as you have to get get comfortable with while while learning the technical space and I think Sally and episode 14, she had just a great minds actor that always catching me back cuz like I'm going to go in the meeting and ask some questions to figure it out because like I'm comfortable in that space and she really approached it from someone who has that the mindset that I always wish I had cuz I would definitely like you Adam horses. Like I don't want to say anything cuz if I ask a dumb question it was going to look at Put unfortunately, I like in height sassy. Sally has a pretty good thought process there of you got to go into a realizing. Yeah, you have an engineering degree and a mind-set but you're not going to know everything and you got to learn through osmosis. Like you said, I caught, you know, another word for that is failure and get comfortable in this new space. And so I think I think there's so many people that were in that boat. I meant by that you bring that out and bring out that that transition cuz transitioning into a new job is different and it feels weird. I don't run it with what was your experience?

Speaker 3: I think this is a great like example of most situations were like you were applying for jobs. I'm sure the the job description for this was not like yours all this stuff you're going to do so good luck. Like you didn't, you know how to count rows things. You've never done that before but you still got hired for it and obviously the person hiring if if they've been in their job and let their group long enough, they're going to Noah Takes to do any certain roles and know someone new coming into it. Like they're they're not they're probably not going to have any specific skills. And so I think it's a good example of being like you may not know that specific area, but that doesn't mean that you don't have the skills be able to learn it like you're a year in your and 1/2 in your bill to answer questions, like just like that. Like naturally I think his example of where where we use our background in did the basics and how to approach problems and how to solve them allows us to learn along the way and that's really important way to do that like like for me so it's so I'm a calibration engineer currently. I had GM somewhere and was asked when I started I I didn't know anything about it. I I had no idea. I don't even know how I got the job. So and it was just staying at it and learning and practicing and asking a lot of dumb questions and just keep going at it. So I need ya for people out there who are like, well, I don't I don't know what that job is that doesn't mean that you can't fill that job until that role because most of it is learning while we're doing I don't even say faking it till you make it cuz you're not faking you're just you're learning you or you're admitting things. You don't know you're asking questions and that's the only way to really learn and do it

Speaker 1: and just acknowledging that that's it. That's an uncomfortable position for some with certain. So I got an offer for certain people that are not used to failing frequently or let me know if you're an overachiever. It's not like it's going to feel really uncomfortable. It's going to feel it's important to acknowledge and appreciate that and just learn learn to feel comfortable that environment for those that are like, that means it's not Everyone likes a lie told her I said that she loves it and braces and that's awesome. But like I was just I get tense like just by thinking about it right now that you're where you're at though for the for those listening to that when you start to make that transition I'm leaving. Anime betrayals transition into a different role in the company Remy happens like 5-10 years with a company and I'm going to try something new. I'm going to go into a new rule. We should get someone on the show that has done that but I'm sure it's a very similar thing of like, oh, yeah. I know cuz you if you were 10 years into one job at one company, you feel probably pretty good about what you know, and then to go from that into a totally different business unit where you know, nothing that's got to feel you know, if this feeling of a boy, so no surprise going to find someone to come on the show to talk about that, but I assume it's very much

Speaker 2: that way. So so yeah, so I did that another thing that I'm sure Brandon will will talk about maybe when you guys have a chance to talk about his career is that the stuff that I was working on at the beginning was really pretty stable. So there wasn't a ton to do and I think that also made it harder to learn but then maybe a year into my job. We started developing the Next Generation which is the current generation of V6 engines and so I kind of got in on the ground floor on that and had a chance to learn some new technology and you know, again a lot of that was way less figured out but it was great because those are the those areas where there are the most uncertainty is where I think you learn the fastest probably I started to work on that he on the early stages of that engine development. You know when they were just on test stands that warning cars yet going down to the to the dinos and trying to debug stuff. So that was kind of a fun exciting part of the job and then right. So then this was sort of right as I felt like I was getting Comfortable and knew what I was doing. My boss who I have to admit. I did not get along that well with which is a whole other thing we could talk about but I'll come back to that and touch on that in just a minute, but my boss said hey there you're looking to hire somebody in this other role in the company and I think you be a good fit for that. Would you be interested in interviewing and I was like well I guess it can't hurt to interview. So I went and interviewed for this new position new to me algorithm design and development engineer. And you know, I talked with the Hiring manager and you know with some of the people I've been working with and one of the one of the guys who had been in my group had that same job. So I kind of talked to him like, you know, what do you think of the job which is also something that you can do an internal interviews that you can't do external that you can you know, cuz you work at the company you can talk with other people who do that job and say, okay. What is your day-to-day really like cuz you're not necessarily going to get that from an interview, right? You know, what do you like about that job? What don't you like about that job? And as a peer they're going to give you a more honest answer than if you ask the person was interviewing you even if that person has your same job what they like or dislike about it cuz they're trying to hire someone they're not going to tell you that much about the parts that suck. Right, so I decided to take a chance on that. I actually looking back. I'm not really sure why I decided to do that. It's interesting the sort of unexpected turns our career can sometimes take but I think partly like I said, I wasn't getting along super well with my boss at the time. It was also a promotional opportunity, which was a big deal to you. Don't go up a level you get more pay better bonuses that kind of thing. Sounds like a good sort of career development opportunity as well.

Speaker 1: I think that it's important to also I mean realize the quality of the relationships that you have in your job in the importance of that in your job selection. I mean, it's one of those it's one of the really crappy parts about the only job postings and stuff like that all the time and the job titles wrong cuz it's not what you do to the descriptions on cuz it doesn't really tell you that much about the job 3. It doesn't really say anything about the people you're going to act with all your boss, which is actually a huge huge part of that. What when are you going to hate your life while you do your job is the Hood by that. I mean right around you in your job are critically important to tell whether or not you're going to enjoy your job like for those in there's no way to judge of that before you start the job is like buying a house you doing this research you look for the house you buy the house. You have no idea. If you have the crappiest Neighbors in the world when you walk in that door, it can totally happen. You're just like giving it a chance to the wind. And that's kind of how it works with with the people who you're going to work with a job and unfortunately, sometimes you just going to you're going to guess wrong. I don't know. I mean I did my dad's a realtor and one of his friends one time when sat in a lawn chair and I in the yard of a house he's going to build for like an extended. Of time to experience the neighborhood if that's allowed but an internal job, maybe you could you can just go sit in the cubicle of the job. You're applying for and just see if the person in that area. I know it's a ridiculous example illustrate the point of the job that you're still totally up for chance for and unfortunately when you get in that job, sometimes you just got to Pivot in some people Adam. I mean, they pivot to lower ping positions to get out of that and so it sounds like you know, I'm not saying that that you were in a horrible position there, but it could have been worse so he will be able to move up in and move out and move on and you know, sometimes it's a good thing, you know. Respect for people.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was it was kind of a you know, I had all of the people I work with like the other people in that group were were for the most part really good and really easy to get along with and that yeah, those those relationships are very important and that's also something that I probably underestimated when I started my career, but on the boss front also like I've had in my career, I think maybe seven or eight different managers over my 8 year career out of school and no two of them have been alike. And that's another important thing to take away is that You know the the way you interact with them. Will be different depending on what their personality is. So it's hard to really I think give blanket rules about that kind of thing. I think as your boss is getting to know you you're also getting to know them and sort of what that relationship Dynamic is going to be like

Speaker 3: like the two-way side of that of my boss is getting to know me but then sometimes you don't change positions with your boss changes and you've got to like re get to know your boss are they at least know you for the first time and how that can always change and that is always yeah, that's always interesting. It's always, you know, when it's new boss, It's always what what are they going to be like that? Are they going to be like the old one that we liked? Are they going to be better than any worse? Who knows and you just you just have to roll with it and sometimes that can that can cause different tension dork be a really good thing for you. Now you you decided that you were getting your going to go to this new job I get a promotion and getting a new boss. What was what was it like making yet another

Speaker 2: transition? So that I actually found was a little bit easier partly because it was sort of in the same part of the company. So this was designing and developing algorithms for engine control module. So basically the just Upstream of what I've been doing as a calibrator. So I knew a lot of acronyms already it wasn't that big of a shift. So a lot of that that's another huge part about starting a new job is not just the skills but also the terminology and the processes and all that stuff Having learned that a lot of that. I didn't really have to relearn that much. I was kind of familiar with the lay of the land there and you know, I I knew some of the people who are there Who was a lot less like starting over and in hindsight and I like I said, I didn't really appreciate this or realize this at the time but that job was pretty much what I had gone to grad school to do in grad school. I have this control problem. I need to solve you kind of have some hardware and a blank piece of paper and okay. How are you going to do this? And so a lot of the skills that I gained their in. Okay, you have a control problem. What methodologies do you apply? How do you design a system? A control system to deal with you know, the plan that you're trying to control the hardware and actuators and sensors and all that stuff my education of of all of the jobs that I had had. This was by far what my education had most directly prepared me for Show that also made it a little bit easier to slot in there was still definitely a learning curve with some of the processes and stuff. But once I got that down I hit the ground running pretty fast and I kind of just I got what the job was. So that was that part was really nice. And so one of the reasons I had decided to take the job. Was because someone of my regrets with leaving. My my previous job is a calibrator was that you know, we had started working on these new engines and then I just kind of left halfway through and that's something that happens to a lot as you move into and out of jobs. You're not necessarily going to be starting a job at the beginning of a project or leaving a job at the end of a project, you know, you're kind of halfway through something and maybe you're sort of invested in it because you've done a lot of hard work, but then you move on and somebody else takes your position and you never really get to See it through is completion, which I'm sure different people have sort of different levels of emotional attachment to the stuff that working on but I know for me I was a little disappointed to say, oh, I'm not going to be able to really finish this and getting back to how I'm not an R&D guy. I was looking forward to saying hey, I developed this new engine and now it's in the car and you can go buy it mom and dad, you know. Just something that I didn't really get coming out of the previous job, but the team that I was hiring on was starting this big kind of revolutionary technology project. The area's thermal management. So how heat moves into and out of the engine you want the engine to? Warm up as quickly as possible. So it's most efficient and you can heat the cabin on cold days, but then you need to keep it from getting too hot in a huge variety of you know, how how hard is the driver asking the engine to work how hot is it outside? There's lots of different factors there. and up until this point the thermal management system on most engines was really simple. It's a mechanically driven pump and a passive wax pellet thermostat and together those just once you design the hardware you're basically done. There's no real active control. But GM at the time was looking into for the first time doing active control over the thermal management system of the engine. And so this was a really big change in an exciting opportunity. Should I was one of the reasons I took the job and of course, I didn't really know what it entailed. You know, like like you were talking about Troy getting a new job. There's lots of stuff. You can't know so to some extent is always going to kind of be a legal face a little bit. but it was exciting to not be inheriting somebody else's work and kind of being able to make my own destiny a little bit and to get in on the ground floor something which is not an opportunity to on a project this big that's not an opportunity that comes along for that many people that often, you know, usually you're taking over from somebody else who started it up or you know, you start up but you don't finish it and I kind of wanted with this one of my goals with this job was I want to Take this kind of from the beginning of its production ization all the way through the start of production. Yeah, so I can. Say that I I I did one kind of whole development cycle on something before I go get a new job. And that can be a challenge in the Auto industry because the development Cycles or maybe five years long or something. So there's a lot of people just don't want to stay in a job that long but by this point having you know had Two jobs in the span of maybe two-and-a-half years or a little less than three years. I knew like I kind of want to know if this is a good fit. I want to stay here for a while and really get like add apps in a position I think there's people who are more interested in breath, you know, they want to try a bunch of different jobs a year or two years at a time. And that can be a really good way to advance your career cuz you get exposure through a lot of different parts of the company. You put your network really fast. I sort of wanted to really technically master. One area and it takes time to do that kind of thing.

Speaker 3: Yeah, what's the times you going to come into a project then going on and you you're inheriting something from someone else and that could either be what you're inheriting could be good or it could be a total mess and navigating through that can can always be an interesting Endeavor and so really really in anything any projects going on longer than like a year. I imagine there could be people rotating through that depending on what people's was. My teeth are coming in on something at the ground level is Israel an awesome opportunity. That's great that the timing lined up for you to do that allows you to really make an imprint on that project have say early on and get to do something. So so if you're listening and you're like I really want to be you know, I really want to know I take ownership and something a lot of that can come around with being a on a project from the beginning which which is in what ways let timing and luck if you weren't at the position that you were at at that time where your boss has said haters of the position email. Look into you might never had an opportunity to jump on it and start what

Speaker 2: you were doing. Right. Yeah, that's that's an important take away because I wasn't looking for this job. You know that the job kind of found me. I think it probably are encouraged people out there to take a little bit more ownership. And even if you are happy in your job, maybe just kind of peruse the postings every once while to see what else is out there because there might be something even better. That's a really good fit for you when the time is right, but unless you're looking for it, you're not necessarily going to know what's out there. I got lucky because it found me, but that doesn't happen all the time. So anyway, so I ended up being in this job and this this is the job where Brennan and I worked together. Brennan was was one of the calibrators for the software that I was helping make I was in this job for a little over 5 years. Actually pretty close to five and a half I think and you know, we developed this entire control and diagnostic system. here we had a little bit from Advanced engineering but we we ended up basically starting from a clean sheet and I learned a lot about software architecture and software design and Diagnostics and it's kind of like what I was saying when I started the work on the second gen. V6 engine at GM starting a new project is also a really good way to learn a lot because You know nothing's really figured out yet. And so, you know again you're in that sink or swim position, but that's the fastest way to learn it was uncomfortable and overwhelming sometimes. there were a lot of there were you know, there was maybe a year where I would be Working on weekends or I'd be up till 2 a.m. Turning around changes that one of my colleagues could work on it during the day the next day. So you can give up your life a little bit to some of these things. If if you let it do that to you and those projects that are really good opportunities for this kind of thing are also usually the challenge ones. They're more likely to take up a lot of your time and you know, there's never Enough time or resources? And so we have to find creative ways to get the stuff done that you need to get done. It's like you were saying earlier Troy. There's you need to figure out okay, like what are really The Bare Essentials of what needs to be done? And then the other the other nine hundred things on my thousand item long to-do list. If they don't need to be done, then they're just not going to get done and you have to kind of learn to you know, let those slip through your fingers a little bit and only catch the important stuff cuz in the high-pressure environment like that, you just can't afford to be. You can't afford to be precious with. With that door or to try to to try to do everything cuz it's just not possible

Speaker 1: either i, k mean in some jobs. It's like almost up to the engineer. What's a priority sometimes you'll have you know, your boss will help be more helpful with priority, which is helpful. But there's nothing like Tony said I sometimes you just got to push things off and eventually it's that one person. That's only one person that needs it. But he or she really needs it. And finally they just get enough of a fire under you for you to take 2 hours the next morning to do it cuz I just never going to get done and sometimes that's how priority get that in like, I think wasn't one Revelation that I had to Rolling in the industry that I really hated but I came to peace with is this idea of people are constantly trying to set your priority. Some people do that by scheduling meetings. Some people do that by yelling at you. Some people do that and in on all kinds of different ways, but Trying to fight for priority of people that have a thousand things on the to-do list in 900 aren't going to get done and how people find ways to dress up as ever but that's why there's a lot of meetings. That's why I don't there was just a lot about the social dynamics of being an engineer that came down to me just people just realizing people are trying to set my priority people are trying to get me to figure out what to work on because they want me to work on X and so yeah. So for some people they just like to be told what to do and they just do that and if they want you bad boss told me I boss told me to work on this so go talk to him or her and that's that's a fine way to approach it. I I would recommend that you'd become your own person and you can give feedback and say no I'm working out and is it the better communication strategy for you to be the one sending your priority cousin you communicated well, and if the general intends to go better and piss people off for a while people and it's it's crappy. It's not it's not a it's not a school semester. You're not taking. Your IC engine class and they're 16 assignment. You're going to quit 16 assignment when you do that you're done. It's hey, I'm starting this thing is going to take infinite amount of time. I'm going to have way more thing that I can possibly do when trying to get as much done as I can. I will also have to figure out priority. How do I do that? I don't know. Okay. Well, what do I work on right now? I don't know some things I want to do is I can't figure out what to do right now. Like I don't know it's it's it's so weird being an engineer but this is what it becomes its kids learning how you are going to handle yourself in these situations.

Speaker 2: Yes. It's really easy to get option paralysis if there's so many things to do, you know where there's so many things to do that I can't decide which ones I'm going to do nothing. Or sometimes you just go based on what what's the most fun thing to do right now? There's is an interesting problem. And that's one of the things that needs to be done. So I'm going to work on that because you know, I don't feel like dealing with this other crappy problem today. And sometimes like you said, it's the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I think that if you're trying to set someone else's priorities that you know, what you need something from them. Sometimes you just have to be annoying enough for them to decide that dealing with it is the least painful of their options, you know,

Speaker 1: so it's so crappy like like that's what I like in industry and I was realizing this moment. I'm just like why is everyone being a squeaky wheel? I hate this I hate this I hate this and then you finally sit down and realize like this is the only way it works and you go crap like and you just you have asthma where you go crap like this is this is just how it works. Like that sucks. Okay. Well, I guess I realize this is just how it works. Okay. I'll keep moving forward. I think I really want to try it like When I first started being an engineer, I kept having all of these things happen. Like you've been squeaky Wheels people going other people's bosses to my boss. Tell me what to do and like why is this all happening? Like why does this have to work like this? Like I hate this I hate that this is how this works, but eventually you come to realize that's that's just how it works. And unfortunately, there's no one's come up with a better option. I think many Engineers would be very happy with a better alternative. But unfortunately, that's just kind of how it is. What you thought you feel like that's what I think there's a certain

Speaker 3: level of of discernment that has to go into it. Just because of Wheels squeaky and you only have so much grease to go around you're not going to the grease album and some people think think their wheels are are squeaky or than others to use metaphor going when they're really just wheels that we were tired and need not be used anymore. So when you're always dealing with other people's demands on your time, there is there's a part of you that has to be like, you know, what is What is really the priority here? It's everything is a priority than nothing is a priority. So it's figuring out what would actually has to be done. Someone may be asking you do something just because they they have nothing else to do and they need you to do that or there is something that is actually really beneficial to getting the project done on time to meet a deadline to get it out there to solve a customer's problem or anything like that until figuring out where that where that all lies and that developing that skill and being able to be diplomatic about it with your co-workers is really important and then also understanding when it's time to to engage your manager in that discussion or kind of Escalade in some ways to be like hey, here's here's how much time I have. Here's what I'm working on yours, but everyone's asking of me, how do you suggest I go about this and I think it's always a balance on that and always it always kind of EDS inflows depending on the season of a project or what's going on or who the person is one thing that you're doing one person you're working with What time they may get replaced by someone else and move on and new person who comes in and doesn't you know, they are just completely different in aren't aren't barking at you all the time do stuff for him. So it always changes. But yeah, it's always, you know, people are asking a lot of you and then you also have to be aware of how much you're asking other people cuz you're asking for brother people's time to help you and I realizing where you are the unnecessarily squeaky wheel. I'm in their ear.

Speaker 2: Right? Well, I also look at it though. It's something that's a little bit freeing because Since it works that way you don't maybe have to get so bent out of shape about what what happens if you're always there. Is there an email I was supposed to reply to that. I never replied to cuz you know, if it's important enough that person's going to email you again, like you can trust that everything that has to get done will eventually get done because it's not just you working on this you working at a company. There are processes there other people and it kind of sets of checks and balances a little bit to make sure that what needs to get done gets done. So, you know that the nightmare of you have a test in college that you never studied for there's a version of that for the workplace to like all there was this thing that I needed to get done, but I totally forgot about and I never got it done and you can worry about stuff like that. but wake up. It's important enough. Somebody else is going to call you out on that. And remind you of the thing that you were supposed to do

Speaker 1: very

Speaker 2: personal responsibility on you to do everything you're being

Speaker 3: asked to do definitely so you you spent five-and-a-half years in this role doing something that you found really that your education. It was something that that you got in on but but the reality is a filthy resume now, that's that's actually not what you're doing anymore. You made it you made another career shift. Tell us about that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so well, this was all going on. So I lived in Michigan for 8 years. And in some ways especially this this most of the last job. I had a g on the algorithm design development engineer you could say that was basically my dream job. I got to do a lot of cool stuff. I'm really proud of the project that we worked on. I think it turned out really well other than you know, some maybe negin problems with a certain tool brand was asking me about earlier today. but During that time. I also kind of realize like you know, what my whole family is in, Minnesota. I'm At the point in my career now, we're so we we got this project out the door to production. They are building his cars. You can go buy them now. Brandon will have to tell you whether you want to or not. I kid. I kid will see their there. They're their Stellar rice. So I was kind of at the point where I've been five years and 5 and 1/2 years in the same position. And so it was probably time for me to do something else. Like I had really very little learning left to do in that job. I was You know one of the most senior people who had that position I was the most senior person with that position in my group. So I was like really an expert but the problem is when you're an expert in something. When you been somewhere long enough to become an expert in something you kind of stopped growing a little bit cuz it's really there's nobody else to learn from. You're teaching other people can be rewarding. And so that kind of position is a good place to be maybe if your toward the end stage of your career, you know, what technical foul or something like that where you sort of topped out but you know, since that promotion five and a half years ago, I hadn't gotten a promotion and GM, you know my area Jam was being reorganized and I went through. You know, maybe three bosses in the space of less than a year. So there's a lot of turnover there. and so everything was changing and it was kind of time to find a new job either a GM or somewhere else and I kind of decided. Again, going back knowing that it was going to be probably a Ross year or year-and-a-half of having to get uncomfortable to get out of my comfort zone feel like I didn't know what's going on again. and I kind of decided if I'm going to do that. Where where do I want to do that? You know do I want another job at GM? Will there wasn't really another position at GM that I liked better than the one that I was in. and a service I didn't you know, do I want to live in Michigan the rest of my life because I've been a GM for 8 years and that's getting to the point where that kind of becomes your career. And that's maybe the case at GM more than it is at a lot of other companies these days. I think a lot of other companies the average 10 years, maybe a little bit lower and that's changing a GM as well. But a GM you still have a lot of people who hiring out of school and work there till they retire. You know, there were plenty of people my age who that was their first job out of school just like it was for me and they didn't really have any plans of going anywhere. So I kind of had to make the call is this going to be my career? Am I going to live in Michigan for you know until I retire? And assured two-sided, you know what I would like if I can to move back to the Twin Cities to be closer to family having done the quote on quote dream job for maybe five years. I sure start to side, you know, maybe that's I'm glad I got to experience it. But maybe there are other things in my life that are more important to me. Then now that the job that I want to do more than any other job, like maybe what I do during those eight or nine hours a day is a good chunk of your life, but there's also a lot of other stuff out there to do. you know family and friends and that kind of thing, so I started looking for jobs in the Twin Cities. and a big difference in looking to get hired by a new company when you already have a job is that time is on your side kind of like you're coming out of grad school. If I didn't find a job within maybe three months. I was going to have no income and have to move back in with my parents when you already have a job. You can just kind of wait until the job you like comes along and then take sat. so that's a very it's a very different Dynamic changing jobs mid-career versus getting your first job. Definitely.

Speaker 3: Definitely. Yeah, that's that's it. That's a good point that having a job gives you a lot of comfort in the ability to be chewy when you're looking to make a new job. That income is nice to have instead of being out of a job. I wouldn't mind you being out of a job looking for a job can definitely light a fire under you to make a lot faster decision to move a lot faster to apply for more networking where would have been maybe but if we put you in a spot of insecurity there, so that's good that you had you still had a job when you're able to look at that knowing the other priorities in your life. Do you want to be close to family you want to pursue other opportunities and were able to kind of take your time and doing that?

Speaker 1: What is it also seems like a transition, transition, but it's like Engineers going to randomly pick the school. They go to Americana randomly find a job kind of maybe they're lucky. They have some idea what they getting the job. They know they got to work a bunch. They work a bunch, but then they can I start sitting back and he start kind of sticking their head up and start kind of saying I make a decent amount of money not really worried about that what I want for my what it what do I want to do here? What's what's the plan is a plan that you know to do this for the next 30 Years and then what and I retire, you know, I exist for the psychologists stages of Life transitions, but like they're definitely this point I see a lot of Engineers getting a 5-10 years in were there. They really start to think about work differently. Yeah. It sounds like your kind of going through it a different like life transition there to an addition in any almost if we talked about like a master's degree is a transitional 204 work. It's always like using a job change as a transitional tool for life

Speaker 2: change. Yeah, I know. That's that's really true. And like you said a lot of my friends have been doing the same thing and I've gotten a new job and move to a different city or move back home or whatever. I mean, you know Troy you you kind of made the same the same call a little bit deciding to go back to your PhD, you know after having having worked in industry for a while. So it is as you mature. In your career and as you get older the your priorities in life shift, and it's important to I think two. Be willing to make changes on the career side to sort of stay in sync with that. You know, if anything, I probably waited a year longer than I should have to pull the trigger kind of kind of like what you were saying Brennan having a job makes it a little bit easier to maybe be a little complacent and not super motivated to look for a new job. Like I knew I wanted one and then I want six months and didn't do anything about it. And then finally I was like I should probably start chewing up the resume and putting it out there.

Speaker 1: So we'll talk about that. So yeah transition, how'd you figure out what you what you wanted to do after having the perfect job and kind of how that looked and then I guess what we can kind of see what you're doing now.

Speaker 2: Yeah sure. So this was all kind of precipitated most Lost proximally by GM went through up a big round of layoffs in like the first quarter of 2019. And so we knew it was coming and they took out a lot of people and that was kind of a a realization triggering thing. Like I realized not only a I feel like I've accomplished enough in this job. I'm I feel ready to go like I'm If I get laid off, I'm not going to be heartbroken about it. MLB if I do get laid off, I'm going to need to update my resume, which is horrible. It's like it's the worst thing to have to do because you know, you're trying to make every word count. And your how do I summarize 8 years at GM? Into you know a page or whatever. Enso that's it's a very It's only writing a page, but in terms of like effort per square inch that's got to be way up there, you know. but so I did that and really For me the deciding factor was I wanted to be in the Twin Cities? now that meant Just like I knew when I decided I wanted to go to the auto industry that I knew I was going to have to move pretty much to the Detroit area. Cuz that's where that's where all the development happens basically. I knew that if I wanted to move away from the Detroit area. I wasn't going to be in the Auto industry anymore there. Just aren't those Auto industry jobs here. So I kept in touch over the years with my Master's advisor, which is a smart thing to do stay in touch with your professors and what not. Cuz you know they have access to a huge Network. And a different network than what you have access to. So I went in cuz he was doing Automotive Research and I gave a little presentation and kind of the production realities of the automotive world and I use that sort of has a chance to be like I kind of want to move back to the cities. Like are there companies here that you see would be a good fit for someone with my skill-set cuz he was pretty familiar with what my skill-set was cuz he was my Master's advisor. And he had worked at GM where I worked. So he gave me a few suggestions kind of as a starting place and I looked around a little bit on my own and so I applied to a few jobs. One of the big Industries in the Twin Cities is the medical device industry. I figured you know, I've worked on safety-critical embedded software and you know that's in. implantable insulin pumps and pacemakers and All that kind of thing. So I guess I could do that. Probably, you know, it's a different industry, but the same discipline which is kind of one way to look at it, right? You can move within the Auto industry to a different discipline maybe or you can keep the same discipline to move to a different industry. And then another place I looked at was Polaris, which is based in Minnesota and they make Powersports Vehicles. They do other stuff too. But ATVs they started with snowmobiles back in the 650s maybe they've been around for a while. But so, you know, those have internal combustion engines that have embedded controllers. No, they're not cars, but they're about as close as you can get two cars in the Twin Cities. So I you know kind of tried to you try to customize your resume a little bit at least in like what order you put things in or what experience you emphasize to Taylor it for each company or applying for and that's also a lot of work, but it could be helpful. So I got I got a couple interviews one was with Medtronic for contract position. interview over the phone And another one was at Polaris for a direct-hire position. I don't know if you guys have talked a lot about contract positions but one of the things with that is you don't really get paid vacation most of the time

Speaker 1: you're at and maybe she maybe just to see it up a little bit. I guess. Yeah just talked about the contractor position doesn't know we haven't talked about all but it'd be good for her people. This thing I miss is the international students were listening to understand. What what contract is a contract means and what it doesn't mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah different companies do contract positions different ways. But the contract position is basically you are directly employed kind of buying a contract house. There are a couple examples of that. I think Aerotek is a big one and there are various others, but they basically, you know find engineer's engineering talent and or also other Industries obviously engineering is the one that I'm familiar with and that were concerned with here on the podcast. So they then contract that labor out to to employers and it's a way for employers to Get labor to do projects without adding fixed cost cuz your contract is there for a certain amount of time then once a contract is done. There's they have no obligation to still give you work. And so you're paid for the hours you work so you can take vacation, but it's not going to be paid. So, you know in cyclic Industries like the Auto industry where they have periods where they have a lot of work to do and periods where they maybe have less work to do or making less money a contract work force allows companies to More easily adjust the size of their payroll without having to go through a bunch of work to hire somebody or fire somebody they can go to a contract house and say, you know, hey, we need for people with kind of this skill set for a year-and-a-half. And the concert Elsa say okay, here's what the rate is. The contract house will take a cut of that. That's their business model. And then the rest of that goes to you basically as certain an hourly rate. So some plus sides of that are you know, you might get to work on a wider array of products cuz you're not always going to be contracted to the same company. and also Because you're paid hourly. It can't really take over your life. Like a salary job. Can you get paid the same amount? No matter how late into the night. You work no matter how many, you know, Saturday is you're in at the office or no matter how many Sunday's your VPN then? But as a contract worker. like you work 40 hours and they don't want you to work more than 40 hours because they would have to pay for it. You know, they're budgeted the companies that's hiring you or you know, it's paying for your contract has budgeted to pay you this much money. That's also May be a good option if you're interested in having and having a little bit better work-life balance the downside to that. Like I said is you don't get paid vacation the position that I interviewed for you did get other benefits you get health insurance and all that stuff. the benefits maybe aren't as good there's also a little bit less income security because obviously if you don't have a contract you're not really getting paid cuz you know. The money to pay you comes from a company. That's not your employer. So you're also there's less job security there. And one of the reasons I was that motivated me at the time. I did one of the other reasons why I wanted to look for a new job. and this is you know, a very timely thing to talk about is You know having been through the the Great Recession in 08 to maybe 2011 or 2012 and having seen what that did to the Auto industry. And having been in sort of an unprecedented boom market for a long time, you know, the gravy train isn't going to last forever, you know, the economy is cyclic and it's really easy to change jobs when everybody's hiring in the economy doing well. It's really hard to change jobs or you might even lose your job when the economy isn't doing well. So I sort of I didn't want to rely on the economy being great, you know in 2 years or whatever and then trying to find a job. When everything crashed like it kind of did at least for a little while in March, you know, that is obviously a little bit different cuz it's sort of an exile a Genus disturbance as we would say in the controls field. Like I came in from outside. So the fundamental the business fundamentals didn't really change it all but you're none the less a bunch of companies are under hiring freezes and stuff and I kind of snuck in Under The Wire When I started my job in November, you know, it was less than five months after that. We were all working from home then so Again, another example of where kind of luck plays into it, but I I knew that something like that was going to happen eventually in the longer. I waited the more likely it was that it was going to happen while I was actively trying to look for a job. So that was one reason why I was a little leery to take a contract position because you have left job security there and in a recession the contract positions. The reason that a company will pay for contractors is because they're easier to let go and so I view taking a contract position when I took it as kind of risky know what GM a lot of times you Jim what companies will also use contract positions as sort of an audition, you know, they'll pay for your contract for a while and if it seems like you're doing good work, they don't want to pay the overhead of the contract position. So they can usually get you cheaper. And you can get a raise if you work for them directly. So if you're working out well, and it's obvious that you know what you're doing and you're performing. Well that can also be a good way to get your foot in the door at a company that might not otherwise hire you. One of the guys I worked with started as a contractor and then ended up as a direct-hire GM and that happened of a fair amount. I would say

Speaker 3: so it's good that you didn't have to go that route though,

Speaker 2: right? Yeah. Like I said, I was a little leery about the about the job security piece of it and as well as the vacation time, and I kind of Figure it out, like well to have a comprable total compensation in terms of okay, if I took the same amount of time off and wasn't getting paid for it. And you have a 401k match was worse how much more than I make now would I have to be paid at this contract position to make it worth my while that's why I gave them a number and they basically said the Medtronic isn't going to pay you that plus are overhead. Like I just more than they can pay this position. So that kind of made up my mind for me a little bit with a position, but I also had an interview Polaris. And they gave me an offer. And you know, I could have kept looking but like we talked about before. I kind of decided to take a leap of faith and see how it was going to be. So I you know, I accepted the job and another thing to know when you do that. It's once you accept the job. Like you said Troy companies. Usually it takes a long time for them to hire someone. and so if they have a if I have a job posted it means they needed somebody probably 3 months ago. So when someone accepts the job they want you there and working for them as fast as they can. show you know, I accepted the job. I think in late October I put in my two weeks notice at work. So, you know, I worked out those last two weeks which you know, maybe Brennan remembers but it was an insane two weeks of just trying to download my Brent the contents of my brain everything all that knowledge. I had that maybe wasn't written down anywhere. Into the people around me. and my last day of work was Friday, November 8th. The movers came on Monday, November 11th. I loaded up my car and drove back to Minnesota on Tuesday the 12th. I looked at apartments Wednesday the 13th. I signed a lease. I think that. Friday and my first day of work was the 19th. So I want from GM to Polaris. I had less than a week and a half to move. four states over Find an apartment. You know kind of get settled in

Speaker 1: and I'm putting all that you did that. Would you will want your what advice would you give yourself? Would you would you ask for time or time in between so I think it's weird right when you're trying to start this new job is dynamic of hey, we're trying to befriend all you want me to start fast. I want to help you out could return to get to know each other right out of the Caribbean for a week or something and all inclusive. We're going to go to Europe and I was ever goes to Europe. I got the minute. They have a college station. Can I write weird? Right? Cuz it's a weird cuz you don't want to you don't want to be like, hey guys really excited to work for you in a couple months, but I'm good for just these couple months now, I'm really excited. But I'm going to be a couple more but I'm really excited. So, you know, it's a weird dynamic. So I guess in hindsight 20/20 Reflections on on how you went about it.

Speaker 2: Goshia's start time a little bit. I think they wanted me to start even earlier than I did. But in hindsight, I do wish that I had asked for more time. like cuz it was kind of weird like my first two weeks weren't even full weeks cuz I started on a Tuesday and then the next week was the week of Thanksgiving. So like it probably would have been a little more relaxed. At least if I had waited until after Thanksgiving to start and yet like you said I mean, so when I was facing the prospect of being laid off at GM, you know when they had that round of layoffs last February. You know, I was entitled to maybe three and a half for four months of severance pay. And so I was like, so I'm going to get paid to do nothing for 4 months like that's going to rule I'm going to be able to travel. Does that mean there's some vacations that are really hard to do, you know, if you want to go over to Europe for six weeks or something. You basically can't do that when you have a job. You need to like wait until you retire or if your company lets you Bank up a bunch of vacation or whatever or take time on paid. So I was kind of ready to like live that life and you know, I'm going to mess around for a month or two in like relax and then I'll start looking for a job. So yeah, it would have been great if I had had even another week but it would have been even better if I had had a couple months but like you said it's it's hard to know I think in hindsight my advice would probably be ask for what you really want. And if that's not acceptable to them. They'll let you know like they've already gotten to the point of telling you they want to hire you. Show you that you have probably more leeway than it feels like you have. To negotiate start date and start dates probably something that they have more leeway to negotiate with you about then something like vacation time or even salary so I do kind of wish I had asked for more time. It was a really hectic few weeks. I mean really the first couple months with Thanksgiving right away and then Christmas and the New Year's and having to you know, the movers showing up with my stuff after a week or two of living out of suitcases. You know, I'm trying to get your life set up in a new place and I had to open a new bank account. new drivers license re-register my car get new insurance all all that stuff. And that all takes time and is kind of a pain in the butt to do. And it's way easier to do if you don't also have to work 45 hours a week. Even aside from like the being able to relax and take a vacation just logistically. Moving is a really tough thing and I had it easy because my relocation was paid for so the Mover showed up and like took my stuff and then three weeks later unloaded all my stuff. So that's like about as low stress as it can possibly be like that was all set up for me. It was paid for for me, but it was still you know, I remember when the movers were done unloading all the stuff. I just like looked in my apartment and it's just full of boxes and I'm like Is it going to take me forever? I don't know where anything is. And you know, I need this I need dishes to eat off of and clothes to wear to the office tomorrow. You know something that took a couple weeks to try to get everything on Boxed and all that stuff

Speaker 3: that stuff away the difference between starting your first job out of college for a year or two at a college or and then eight years out of college did the amount of stuff the different logistic have everything at the factory Inc. They're like man. I'm I'm older now things are just different. I don't want it. I don't want to do it cheap same time. Like, you know, where's my stuff? I got all my stuff. So yeah, it's always definitely got to think about the family too.

Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and and I mean for 8 and 1/2 years 7 and 1/2 of those years were in the same apart. And so when you don't move for seven and a half years. You accumulate stuff and you don't really realize. how much stuff that is until you have to empty everything out of the apartment that isn't bolted to the floor. Like how it turns out like two bookshelves worth of books. That's a lot of books. Oh when I when I moved out here, I didn't have a TV. I didn't own a bed frame. You know, I didn't have a couch. and that's another big difference from You know your first move versus you know moving when you're 8 years into a career like, you know, I was making good money for 8 years. And so you spend that and you buy stuff with it and then you have to either get rid of it or move it when you move. The definitely not a thing to be undertaken lightly.

Speaker 1: Okay, so I guess that's a wrap it up a little bit but sounds like you're now in the in the job so I can see what you're doing at Polaris and got out where you live sits now and then we'll we'll work our way towards the end of what might be the longest time PSN. We've had

Speaker 2: almost exactly right I think so. My job flares, my job title is controller lead. So one of the big differences between Polaris and GM is GM is an enormous company. One of the biggest companies Polaris is a lot smaller. So the job that I do at Polaris. Part of that job is kind of like my job was a GM right? It's it's specifying software. Let's say for an embedded control module that Does or control something on a Powersports you know, what side by side or something like that? But in addition to that I'm doing what would have a GM have been Maybe. eight or nine other people's jobs just because Polaris is a lot smaller. And so they don't have you know at GM there's a separate group for each one of these functions and here it's just one group that has to do everything. So what I do as a controller lead is I write requirements and send to suppliers so that they can quote controller Hardware. So we need a control module to do this thing hears the inputs and outputs. We need here so much current. We need the thing to be able to handle. You know, can you make this for us? How long is it going to take you to make it for us? How much is it going to cost? She send that out to I don't know 15 or 20 companies. They give you stuff back and then you know you select a company to go with. And then you know, so you're specifying controller Hardware. You're quoting the hardware you're working with suppliers. You're then also specifying the software. At Polaris we do some of the software in-house some of the software. We have our suppliers to themselves depending on kind of what's what makes the most sense for a given project. You're then project managing that controller. So, you know the software and controller need to hit certain. Maturity or content Milestones to keep up with the vehicle that they're going in. So the vehicle needs to be able to do this thing at this Milestone. So we need the content in the module there to do that thing at that time. You need to kind of set out a controller development plan. You need to manage the controller to that which involves working with the supplier working with your software engineer working with just a lot more project management and I had to do it's a lot more different roles and I had to do I'm working with can a lot more than I ever had to a GM cuz there was a whole separate group to that. So that's been like I was saying what at my new when I started a new role at GM I'm learning a lot. It's really overwhelming because you know, my last position was pretty much right up the alley of what I have done to school for and this is like some of that but a bunch of other stuff too that I don't have a lot of experience in No, being an experienced or mid-career engineer does help because you know you have kind of those. You more skills in your toolbox, you know, you you're better at prioritizing you you know, this is the fourth new position I've started so I kind of know what to expect, you know, and how do you go about learning stuff? You know, how do you approach your co-workers to ask for help on something cuz you don't know how to do it yet. you know one of the things that I had to kind of prepare myself for when I took this job at a new company is it's going to be like when I started a new job at GM and I felt like I didn't know what I was doing for a while and it's going to be uncomfortable and am I ready for that? And I decided I was and so you kind of repeat that to yourself every so often when things feel overwhelming like actually, you know, what those three other jobs I started and it felt this way. It was fine. You know, it's going to be okay and that's not something I would have been able to do as an earlier point in my career and also haven't worked in one position for five and a half years and gotten really good at it that gives you that confidence like you know what I'm a smart guy. I'm a good engineer. I don't know the specific stuff yet, but I will and I will I will be good at this in two years time or whatever. And so yeah, it's it's a very different position than what I had before. But like I said, I'm learning a lot Polaris moves a lot faster than GM does just kind of because of what industry attend there's a lot less regulation. So it's a lot more fast and loose that's a very project that took me. 5 years at GM would take Polaris to or less probably. Because that's the pace at which that industry moves. That's their the length of their development cycle and I've gotten to know my new co-workers a little bit. That's another big thing when you come into a new job is okay for like people people have job titles, but then also there's kind of like that underground network of who knows what and who knows how to work the organization to get certain things done. so learning who those people are and getting to know them is also an important thing like what's what kind of the the black market of power or Who knows how to how to grease the rights kids

Speaker 1: some of the best advice? I think I've ever got hurt in try to give to his when you start that job. And there's that initial start job Lowell or it seems like you should be doing something. You're not doing a lot. I'd go talk to people like go just need people go their name so that when you'll get busy don't worry, they didn't have an empty position for a reason they didn't they have plenty of work to do it will get busy and at that time having the oven the networks are to build out. This is it is a good time. So, yeah, it's it's being busy doing nothing but sounds like you able to to build up your your network during that time and it's it's it's good cuz you haven't you realized being Springs and knew that the network is it is important

Speaker 2: to have Yeah, and that's that's something that I didn't know when I was starting a GM. So it's it's very interesting starting at a new company having worked somewhere else for eight years cuz this is only the second company I've ever worked at you know in my quote-unquote real job. Type of career and so I just know a lot more about what is it like to have a full-time job as an engineer. You have some of those people skills know how to Talk to and deal with your manager how to like we talked about earlier. If you need something from somebody how to encourage them to get that to you without, you know, being a jerk about it. And those things just kind of come with time and you're not. Really going to have those when you start your first job, although hopefully if you listen to enough episodes of this podcast, there's the plug boys,

Speaker 1: right? I mean

Speaker 2: look this this is not my first podcast Rodeo. I know what the deal is but no sound like if if if you listen to this podcast enough, you hear all these different people's experiences. This is I think Brandon in Troy your goal with this is to at least give people a heads up. Like here's what to look for in to pay attention to when you start your job things that you know that I didn't know when I was starting my first job out of school. You know. Things like it's not homework, cuz there's not an answer key that the professor has somewhere. You know, you guys have talked about that a whole bunch, you know the interpersonal stuff time management. all of that stuff is is important and you don't you have to kind of learn it's important on the job in addition to learning that domain specific knowledge, but hopefully as you know as a listener who's starting out in their career you You know in listen to this podcast Yuri, you know a little bit better like at least to expect to need to learn those things on the job. And maybe to be proactive and to go out of your way and seeking that stuff out

Speaker 3: with that. We normally ask you as we come to the end here if you have any last-minute advice, right, but I think you I think you just said it. All right there. You've given us so much awesome stuff tonight on, you know, all the lessons you've learned and it's been awesome having you on your it was it was awesome working with you in person and an awesome to have you on here.

Speaker 2: You guys are very welcome. It was it was fun to come on. I don't work at GM for so long. I I definitely have had a lot of these kinds of thoughts and it's nice that you guys have a form like this where people can share those experiences. I hope and I hope you don't trash-talk me specifically too much when you talk about your your career,

Speaker 3: but I could never I could never do it. Yes, I will. I will talk to you again soon. Okay for sure. Adam is full of great inside T. He was full of them when I worked with him and he still got it going on. Now. He's. It's all good stuff. And it was it was awesome having them on like so many good reflection. He has about where he's at now and how he's got there. It was really awesome talk to him.

Speaker 1: I agree. I think it's just because there was just a lot of good stuff there to talk about like I just wanted to keep a vibrating and I just couldn't I couldn't come off cuz I wanted to keep it going and so you're not to be a longer podcast, but you know how ironically we talked about this at the end the recap of the last episode but like what do you mean, you know, I don't know maybe maybe 2 hours for Sun orange Let It Go in people talking. Yeah. I don't know. I thought I thought was really great that you I mean, I think he is one of the things that really really enjoyed by Adam that I think a lot of Engineers regardless of where they are in their career could really learn from is awareness of the business around you and what that means for your moves. So we talked a lot about how he was like well businesses cyclical. I've been in this good role for a long time. It probably going to get bad. I got to think about this and that bad, you know, it just goes up and down. I thought I thought he did an exceptional job while still leaving technical keeping his hand on the pulse of the business so that when he made Moves and different things it was not too bad of a time. I mean, it could probably just because the 09 burn, you know coming into it hard like that and realizing that something you can't control it. So you got to control what you can control and you know, maybe just came out of that swinging and really learning at all. I just think I think that's that situational awareness in your position is is a really really good idea for every engineer. That's that's listening and Beyond.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I totally agree. You can't just like to have your head down every day not really paying attention to what's going on in in your career in the greater world around you and what that might mean for your job or when you you do put your head up you decide you want to move in if you've seen a missed opportunity or something's gone by I think he talked about how in your first year year-and-a-half job. You might not even really know what you're doing. You're still learning and I think that's an important thing for people to realize Is that when you start a job it's likely that you do not have all the necessary skills for it, but you're still hired to do that because you expected to be able to learn and to be able to figure it out over time, and it's important thing. Could you might get into something and think that your way over your head, but if you stick at it, you'll eventually be able in it, you know, six months a year year-and-a-half whatever to just have the answers to questions second nature, and just to do your job really well, and especially like Adam has its jump around from from different roles. Only. One of those is one that he felt like he really was specialize in because of his education background, and so you always have to realize that you can perform really well at lots of different roles. As long as you have some kind of learning mindset around and are open to that.

Speaker 1: So, thank you. Thanks for listening. All right. Talk to you

Speaker 3: talk to y'all later everyone text to Ryan. Thanks for listening this episode of engineer your career with Troy Bauman and Brennan Tamarac for more information about the show visit our website at UIC podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with Troy and I if you or someone, you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey, I would like to be on the show go on the website send us a short bio and we made it to invite you to come on and share your story. And finally if you want to show your support, please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice.