Speaker 3: We're back for another episode of engineer your career. The story today is an unconventional one of a young Joe damn about getting a bachelor's degree in environmental engineering before pursuing a Juris doctorate while he was studying in the beautiful you pee during his undergrad Joe focus on International engineering projects in on studying climate change in public policy. He was president of Engineers Without Borders. And did you see new design in Santa Cruz Bolivia to the international senior design program? It was during this time that you caught the legal policy bug. He was also interested in how companies comply with the laws but why they did this lead to law school in a joint degree in public policy at the University of Minnesota after graduating joke at a job in a natural gas utility work issues after about a year ago almost down to the Minnesota attorney general's office where you advocated for residents and small-business repaired before the Public Utilities Commission in April 2019, Joe took his current job is a staff attorney at the Minnesota Pollution Control agency. Are you get to work with scientists and Engineers have a daily basis covering the air and Remediation sections Joe. Welcome to EYC. And here we are next episode of you. I see everyone. Thanks for listening and got branded on the line Brennan. How's it going man? I'm here. I'm here. I'm doing well. Hopefully big news coming up in the end episode or two episode that everyone's been wanting. No one is asking about it, but I really want it right at the beginning when we might find some time. Maybe. Yeah, so it better be epic. Hopefully the teaser here is epic. Anyway, so life transition big big changes thinking about doing something different in that I guess today Giordano really excited to have them on the show Joe. Thanks for being

Speaker 1: here. Thank you. Both are having me. I'm excited to talk about my engineering and why I don't do it anymore. I just want

Speaker 3: to be an engineer was listening. We had a similar episode with Neja. I can't remember episode 8 or 9. I don't remember but mayhaw, look at look into it. When in the marketing Joe today's going to take us a different way. And so we might as well start off with you. I guess getting this going on where you started and then it will obviously get into where you are now

Speaker 1: ya have a degree in environmental engineering from Michigan Tech and its way back in childhood and the both of my parents are engineers. My mom is mechanical. My dad's electrical and I always thought that I would. I don't think they pressured me but I always kind of assumed that that I would be an engineer. That was what I told people growing up that I'd be doing engineering and I think I didn't envision myself as a as either mechanical or electrical nothing against against those but I wanted to do something a little bit different than my parents and I really love the environment and I remember growing up even reading the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle book about acid rain and let it gasoline and it was probably late 80s early early 90s vintage and all the ozone layer and and then all of those kind of really big environmental problems at the time and So I had a career path to do engineering. I remember in high school. I stopped taking a foreign language after sophomore year cuz I didn't do the Michigan Tech, you know, you didn't need more than two years for friends and hearing and and I want to do environmental engineering because my passion for furniture in the environment and and yes that I guess gets me through through high school and in the freshman year at

Speaker 3: so you knew right away, Michigan Tech sounds like a choice. How did that come to be with your parents, or do you have another connection connection to it? And I didn't really know what

Speaker 1: the UV was the Upper Peninsula I grew up in Minnesota. So not not too far away. But I remember I was looking for those looking for a school that had environmental and I'd wanted a specific environmental engineering degree and not the civil with an environment. Concentration looking back on it. I I kind of now. I know the four most programs noted just depending on the professors and the classes that are offered and there's not really a distinction between getting a civil engineering degree with an environmental focus and and what I got, but that I remember for some reason it was really important to me that I do it and environmental engineering degree

Speaker 3: in a little bit more in retrospect in Industry. The view is the same for the two degrees like there or I guess what he would you mean by that? Yeah, I think that's

Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I'm not really in Industry. So I don't know but I can see from your perspective University of Minnesota or the University of Wisconsin and places that at least at the time I was looking at civil engineering degrees with an environmental concentration. You know that I don't think the classes of that I ended up taking at Michigan Tech where that subpoena substantially different or you know, that's a career options that I would have had would have been any really need any different

Speaker 3: catch a very interesting point also just as hard as well as you can when you're looking at the type of the number of faculty and what they're studying in that department because that's usually it's for sure a big indicator of this very specific classes that you are able to take your Junior and Senior year like like what you get to your Jenna and you're picking your specialty classes if there are faculty in the department that are researching in certain areas for sure. There will be content in those areas. I'm kind of wondering if my experience as well. So

Speaker 1: yeah for sure and Michigan Tech still has a really great environmental engineering program and that's probably the overarching thing is that they I like the classes that they were offering and I like the access to it till expiry. And getting to do a lot of the really Lake Superior focused research Professor looking at the carbon dioxide CO2 flux related to climate change on Lake Superior and we got to go out on the under the lake a lot for free classes. And so there are a number of factors that that led me to Michigan Tech but first and foremost environmental engineering degrees, but they they offer

Speaker 3: through text me what what were some key moments that kind of a line to your bath now for sure, but other things that you think might think of interest for those listening

Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah, I remember being very so I guess going going back to high school for a second. And and in my experience is there a certainly likes math and science but my grades were in English and in history and then I scored better, you know, I'm on my ACT using and I English and reading and so getting getting onto campus freshman year with the population Michigan Math and Science overachievers was was intimidating I eat I still have nightmares about L-3 and you know that realizing that I didn't have to say it was enrolled the entire semester and and didn't realize it until finals and and the first couple years. I think we're difficult. I got decent grades, but I didn't feel like I was really They pick selling a really feeling uncomfortable, I guess with college and I think that's probably normal for everyone for a number of reasons. But as soon as I started taking Degree specific courses so getting into surface water quality air quality Wastewater and taking the more advanced labs. And by that time I had my core group of friends from you about from the dorms and also in in the degree program and and then you know, my grades shut up and take my interest level shot up. And then I really remember feeling like I picked right? I guess when I was in high school and then want to go to Michigan Tech wanting to get the environmental engineering degree and I guess Ironically that was about the time that I decided to go to law school or did to look to pursue that pretty seriously

Speaker 3: not for sure. When did you when did you realize that that was an option

Speaker 1: for you? Yeah, I remember I did a coop at an oil refinery stop for your side at the end the end of the fall semester of sophomore year. I came back home actually and did a six-month go off at a refinery in in their environmental and health department and And I think that was obviously the first time I had experience working with environmental regulations and laws and working for a company that whose main job at least my job was to comply with them and using engineering as well. But but it was a relief heavily focus on Regulatory Compliance and I and I remember working on some some problem that they were having an and thinking to myself

Speaker 2: I

Speaker 1: can understand now how a company is going to comply but I didn't really know why they were having to comply with these regulations. I wanted to get really interested me today to dig through the regulations and and the laws and figure out you know, what y a standard is said that the level it is the process that you have to go through to do that and then the back and forth between industry and government to know submit test results to get reports and communicate and I remember I got back to campus the next fall and started researching law schools at no one in my family. Eva is a lawyer and it wasn't really something I had seriously considered. To that point but I but I think I started to realize that you're my main strengths. And interests were both in the environmental brown, but also in kind of a the illegal Arena as well. So I started to Pivot my studies and the things that I was doing at school to get ready for for law school

Speaker 3: after your sophomore year. So you weren't even fully like deep into the engineering part of it and it internship is what caused you to like want to Pivot and change course and I think for a friend is listening who still has an opportunity to do an internship or to get some experience. We're still in college like that can be the most eye-opening thing for you whether that is we heard from people who decide something. They didn't want to do it through an internship and change course than engineering but like what you did in engineering internship LED you to see something that you might not have you might only read about in a text book and some may be environmental ethics. Are some some overview in college but it said like you got that direct experience in it. And that really let you down that path. I think that's a really important thing for free will think about is all these experiences that you get before. You can graduate to really help Define your password. And that's awesome to see that that that led you down something that you were probably more interested in it than engineering aspect of it and what I like about it is what you described as the how in the engineering is how you do it. But what what you were exposed to or what you were had the opportunity to realize was possible is getting on the Y side of it the why are we doing this and in the policy side in setting that I think that's super important to I mean kind of realize maybe engineering can be on the house side how things get done. You know, it's not necessarily on the wais. I don't know. I'm Just a Nobody and even think about what may have in the marketing example, like why are we making the product? Why does it have to have the specs? So people will buy it's interesting perspective of Engineers in the house I'd but you can still use engineering to go to the Y side and then and learn their so that's really great show, you know, so I ain't so you come back and and you said okay. I'm going to start getting ready for law school. What specifically did that mean? What we did you change the classes? You were planning to take as you go talk to a different advisor? How did what did that mean for actual changes?

Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a great question. And then I think One of the considerations to that that runaway you said Spartan in my mind was I guess the decision to continue doing engineering when you're free, why are political science or for something else is called a club or more traditional. So I think that also gets gets into question two. And then what did I do? I remember sitting in my small studio apartment that fall researching what even what it was. Score to to get into law school right eye. I guess I wasn't considering I didn't know anyone who had gone that fast and so I was researching the test. You have to take the LSAT and figuring out what that meant. If I had actually wanted to devote months and months into studying it and turn answers and I only took it once and you try to try to do well on it like anytime she going to take it again. I remember and rolling into an intro to Legal careers class and that was kind of a seminar where where we had different attorneys come in. We were practicing in the area and it is not a very big area. So there aren't that many that many attorneys, but we had I remember we had to come get some attorneys and got to ask them questions is really entry level really introductory stuff. everyday in terms of my research into looking at how climate change and public kind of public policy and in the law in the united resources policy program. And I still work with a professor who researched there and I wanted to and I talked to her about the fact that I wanted to get an engineering degree, but wanted to advance to law school and she worked with me to expose me to research opportunities that that's that my interest in energy and environmental law & policy with the work that she was doing. So I spent the summer doing I don't know if they have it now and I don't really remember the name of it. I think it was Sir

Speaker 3: summer undergrad research Fellowship. I think that's right the university sponsors undergraduates to do research in the summer near University of Michigan Tech listening probably has some kind of similar program. But

Speaker 1: yeah, I think and I think that that it was a great experience, especially leading toward some sort of graduate school and getting your feet wet on research process. I included in that I was transcribing interviews from forest service manager. So it is not it is that wasn't the the sexiest summer I guess in terms of job ever. But but I think it it did open my eyes to to Academia and in the research process and in some interesting issues with the law that that I wanted to get out of bed. So I took my my regular stable of environmental engineering classes for tried to Find research opportunities or take some sunglasses that that related to law. And then and also just a research on gun law schools and try to study for the LSAT and and and all of that so there was a little bit of a shift but by and large I got kind of doing doing the engineering stuff and I don't think I really fully considered not being an engineer. I remember people ask me what why you still doing this if you want to go to law school and and my thought at the time is the same as my right now and it's just that engineering teaches really critical thinking skills and problem-solving and and it's just a great education in that and I really wanted to get that skill set that that you know those tools in my in my toolbox and and I'm really glad that I did because it's helped me every day of my career since then. Even though I never never work today paid as an engineer, I'm really happy that I said I have that degree in that that mindset engineers and scientists. Then I can usually decipher what the problem is and then leave them at least a little bit toward halfway some of the issues so I'm happy that I but I stuck with it and and had a release of selling time for the remaining two years at 10 Michigan Tech. Imagine being relatable to the people that did that you're working

Speaker 3: with and some and some aspect makes it a lot easier instead of just being seeing

Speaker 1: as this is the lawyer person here is a lawyer stuff. It's

Speaker 3: no it's Joe. I actually understand engineering with us and can can go further in that especially in the in the area that you've decided to be practicing law in

Speaker 1: before like the skills that you're learning is is University of cycle in a lot of ways,

Speaker 3: you know, one thing I haven't we haven't added as a bullet point on the advantages of an undergraduate education. That I think I put up there now is also your ability to interact with other Engineers like so I mean, it's hanging out in the dorms or you know, being part of labs and stuff like that you interact with a bunch of other people who are very stereotypical engineers and you learn about their personalities and you learn about their quirks and you learn how some of them may say things that are very direct and you might take a defensive but erection not offencive cuz they're just Engineers near just being direct like weird social norms of Engineers and you learn about that and it it does help kind of like it's a similar like to become part of that community and as may I mention her up so that gives you some street cred even though I'm actively like what classes I never of the Praxis but it's different and it's you know, for some people that are looking for you. As people as you know that the community type humans we are we want to find community. If we see people have another degree like ours, we instantly feel Community with them and that's not a bad thing when they're people that you're interacting with him, but it's an interesting thought to put on as of in the bandage of doing engineering undergrad. If you do something else. It's like well if it helps you understand what it's like to be an engineer so that you can appreciate maybe someone on the other side of the table from you interesting. Okay, so I got to help us help us in our Brenda Havasu from hell. You don't know this process as well as you would help us walkthrough. What what the process look like the last two years in terms of studying and then how early before you graduated you have to take the exam or how did that all work? Sure. It's the I took it

Speaker 1: and I don't really remember. You have to take the outside within a certain. Of time between the time that you apply to law school. So you couldn't take it going to take me to 10 years ago and five this fall so I took it my last summer. Michigan. I graduated in December of 2008. So I took it into number of 2008 and remember that I took an online course, I was back in the cities and in Minneapolis that summer so I took actually in class course the to study for the outside at summer while I was working for an engineering consulting firm. And because I did still actually a firm or at least I see the reports coming in for you know, it was groundwater sampling and and soil sampling and and and so it getting back to try your point about street cred that guy has ever worked with some of the people that then and now interact with Phillies at some level when I was 20 years old and is studying for the LSAT in the in the company truck. During breaks. And yeah, so that the LSAT is a really difficult. It is a weird test. There's a lot of logic involved is reading comprehension and Engineers are be good at a lot of it. Especially the logic one. That's kind of like the the problems. We're Hitler 5c to the table. If Mary sit next to the next to Larry to go to the right, but Frank can't sit units of the right left of Larry like those types of things where you at the game out. What's what's logically possible so that a building engineer in me, but it's also a lot of reading comprehension. And another and other things and it's time. So it feels like it goes by in an instant and there were some people who I taken that intro to Law class you were in it because they're there or maybe handful of people if that who who are in the class and I suspect that they could have been from from other parts areas nearby took that in and number got the results back like 6 weeks later and you get your score and in for law schools the score in your GPA are the two most important indicators for where you get to go in because it's a really like a number is driven admissions process and there's no adjustment for going through an engineering degree with your teeth. I wish there was one So I graduated that that December and then basically started looking in applying to the schools that that fall as I was moving out to DC for that. That's 6 months gap between the end of undergrad on the start of law school.

Speaker 3: What were your important factors in picking what law school you wanted to go to imagine? Imagine if I tied closely with your interest in environment we're doing now, but yeah, what kind of what kind of taxes you can go into that? I don't know anything about picking a glass cooler. Where how do you go about that?

Speaker 1: Ya know that that's a that's a great question. I certainly the number one thing was whether they had a good environment along program and there are subsets of Life rankings. that does look at program-specific at schools and I'm trying to think the when I was looking there were smaller schools in Upstate New York, Vermont and in Portland, Oregon that we're almost exclusively kind of tailored towards environmental law. And and now I see a lot of people who went to those schools practicing and environmental law and so it's no surprise and I considered all of them visited two of the three of us attended Vermont law school and at Lewis and Clark Inn in Portland. And I also had on my list of a group of law schools that were larger, but I also had good environmental law programs. Basically. I had a nationwide search that had environmental laws up on the West location, you know, looking at living in Vermont or or Portland OR Boulder, Colorado, it'll be great and then almost as an afterthought I'd applied. University of Minnesota, it was my hometown school and I think part of the reason I didn't go to the University of Minnesota for undergrad was it was the hometown school that my parents both went to and and I wanted to get away and so I think I still had some of that. Mindset with law school, even though the you the universe in Minnesota is a really great law school with a really great environmental law program. And so I was choosing between five or six schools and the University of Minnesota one in part because I emailed some of the environmental law professors just to see kind of explained my situation that I really wanted to do environmental law and I'm thinking about which law schools and and and I guess basically why I should choose the University of Minnesota and and and they both the two people I emailed responded with really good points about the fact that You need to be a really good lawyer to be a really good Environmental Lawyer. And yeah, I get a good education at any of those schools I was looking at but I think I'm really happy with the choice. I made to go to the University of Minnesota and they helped it that's about as I talk to a bunch of classes from them and then turn it off. Like you know what you're waiting for him to be a good lawyer before you can be a good Environmental Lawyer because a lot of the things that we deal with aren't strictly environmental law

Speaker 3: undergrad in I think it's okay for people to realize that you can get a great degree from a bunch of different institutions. I think it's true. Like we have a lot of great universities that do a lot of great things to put out a lot of great students. I can often be personal choices and Even just random selection and things in it that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. You know what I think you can look at different ways, you know, if it's it's likely you'll have a selection of a lot of good universities in Salinas looking at other things like when we talked to people who got their MBA about like, okay. Well was the networking going to be a big advantage or what were what are some of the other things that I'm going to take way you start to look at the degree is okay to your point. Make sure it's a good base of law or whatever. The graduate degree is, but then okay, what are the other things? I'm going to try and gain from this degree while I'm there. Is it going to be in the area? I'm going to like cuz if I'm happier than that's that's going to make me happy while I study and I think those are all really good things to consider when just thinking about the idea of how do I select it's okay. Well, you know, it's almost making sure you consciously acknowledge what the other benefits you are trying to get from the degree are and so it sounds like you were able to do that and get them question to answer to even just emailing The Faculty, which is great. I'm glad that they are. But I'm not I think that's realistic. That's a good approach to if you see some faculty that are of interest in the place. You want to go email him. I think that's a great idea. Okay, so we get to the Twin Cities where we're back home. We started we started lost but I'm just curious. How did it start, you know, you're going from his engineering undergraduate education where it's a here's here's equations where in Chapter one. We're going to learn the derivation of this equation to get us the simple equation, which then we're going to apply in the homework and you're going to have 10 homework problems and that's going to be the class to grad school, which is different but I understand what that transition was like. Yeah. I talked about

Speaker 1: how Fish Out of Water I felt in in my freshman year at Michigan Tech in NFL team exact same way at Law School. And luckily, it just works differently. You don't have your own great at anything except the final and most classes. And you have no idea how you're doing compared to anyone or even how are you doing yourself? Until the until January and the way it works in most law schools as it's kind of like engineering you have your general courses, so contrast constitutional law towards property law. And you take them with the same tour to people and it's kind of like Elementary School may be in that way. That is that that I went through every class by one out here that my first year in law school with the same people and they're some of my best friends now and I think it's in large part because of what we had to go through that first year classes are structured differently in most classes. You read 3240 Pages material before each class with 3325 cases and the professor will call on random people during the class and called the Socratic method and you're sitting there and the professor calls on you and it's just one of the facts of this case the plaintiff on a banana peel and cases that we read in Imports about banana peel. Tripping on banana peels and whether the store is negligent or what not and what other other questions you get are based on he'll be something like based on the holding in this case which she read last week. How would you apply that concept to the facts in this case in the end? It's and you're doing it in front of Strangers at first but then classmates want to get to know him and and so everyone is staring at you. They probably 70 people in the class. You're being asked questions that you had that you thought you prepared for. But but once you get asked either because it's in front of everyone or because obviously the professor going to ask you something tricky that they got to think on your feet about it's it's really it's really a different kind of stressed and I think coming from the engineering background. We're like, you're saying it it's it's more here's here to hear the tester going to be taken throughout the year. Here's the the basic basic through concept or through complex Concepts. You going to have a bar in their own throbbing to build on each other and and you're going to have homework regularly and no kind of know how you're doing as you go to go from that to you have no idea what you're doing. You've never heard of any of these Concepts they have only bearing in the cases that you read and not in a in a textbook with equations is really intimidating and I What I realize is that it wasn't intimidating because I came from an engineering background. I think no one comes into law school with an understanding of torture of different contracts law. Concepts in until I think that convection be applied to other graduate programs to as you know, you are probably just as scared as you are and feel uncomfortable if you are and I think the first instinct for me was to assume that everyone had a deep well of knowledge about all of these things but it's it only takes a few times to seeing your classmates in yourself get stumps and go totally blank during a Class 2 to realize that that you're all in the same boat and he lost his competitive as well. But also don't hang out with those people and you'll be fine and it's kind of how was an undergrad to is is you want to find the people who are going through the same thing and then you can ride to I guess you can call them friends that that helps a lot and and engineering. Was hard and whether I did it in also because it helped me get through law school and there is some logic to do a lot and I think engineering really helped me identify those areas in and get through them or model through them like everyone else. I guess it's interesting that I think when you

Speaker 3: talk and thinking about it like an engineering we think, you know, we see a problem and I go through a mental Rolodex of here the equation tears when I apply whereas your kind of talking about

Speaker 1: here is here's the

Speaker 3: case in front of us. Now. I'm going through a list of everything in the past and I've learned about in similar cases. How does applying how it got to be a lot

Speaker 1: different when you add some more at

Speaker 3: SMU subjectivity to it all of us not just Black and Whites that there isn't a silly one right answer coming out at the end of this is how are things applied and how we discuss some logic in in and just got through it. So I got to imagine that's at least a little bit of a mental shift and how you're approaching with Ricardo call cases problems or not. But yeah like that that would just be a totally different thing for me and I imagine it's a little bit different getting into the groove that

Speaker 1: yeah. It's yeah, exactly going from somewhere where there is an objective answer to a problem to one where there are really good arguments on both sides with something that it's hard to really adjust to at first because I would kind of agree with the last person who who made a point in class and then the next person would say something like that. That's a good point in and I think that I see that I see that kind of that logical conundrum in I work today and I think a lot of the problems that I deal with have no right or wrong answer there are risky or less risky from a legal perspective. Solutions but one of the things that I've I've noticed is that the engineers that work with across-the-board great people but they're also Engineers who who really want the one right answer and I think trying to explain that there is just a Let me continue on love of may be legal risk that I'm looking at. But that within that there are any number of engineering Solutions or right answers. It just takes empathy nothing from from my perspective and understanding that. the engineering mindset, but also some Just communication about how the lion tracks with what their problem with their issue. And and now it's it's not I wasn't the most satisfying satisfying we objectives answer that it said I end up advising. So that's how I learned that early on that. The laws kind of there wouldn't be any legal problems with my tits all about interpreting the shades

Speaker 3: of grey. Yeah, I think so. I have my Master's in business and in when I when I went into that it is I went into that and everyone was like Wow business is easy and stuff, but I quickly came to realize is that but if there's so much risk like if you take a thermodynamic Sky's maybe like while there's we don't really know the equations are only maybe 25% accurate. Like that's holy cow. We we don't really know but in two Engineers like they're worried about getting even the correct answer 202 a very, you know certain Precision, but when you start to go away from engineering I get to your point, like I realized that you start to get into just a hell lot more risk it be almost like if you're an engineer with your typical safety factors had to be in the thousands or in the hundreds just because you really had no idea. I'm deep the problem you were trying to solve just because things become Unknowable, you know, I mean it's it's there's a million ways this could play out and there's a million people that will affect and there's a million ways. It will play out in you got to look at you got to look at the percentages look at the risk and you trying to evaluate it and it's not it's not as cut-and-dry and you got to be comfortable in that don't insult. One thing I'm taking away from you Joe is that you what you're comfortable in that and if you're listening and you that sounds super uncomfortable then maybe that's a clue that this isn't that's a printing everything. I do a lot of reading. It sounds like you love while I don't know if you have to read but I hope I hope you don't hate it cuz it sounds like there's a ton of reading and reading comprehension and for me and Engineering I struggled so hard to read the chapters and I could barely comprehend dumb and I got through the homework just by like what that a problem ahead of me going back in the book and look at insights. I know I'm bad at that. And so I know I would really struggle with that but that's good things to take away if you're listening and realizing like what your what type of person are you if you know, what do you enjoy you going to enjoy reading a bunch to understand to contacts and how that's going to fit into your jaw. And it sounds like Joe that's what that's really. I mean, I'm curious as to your thoughts on kind of that reflection of you know, reading comprehension. And in your your enjoyment of it. Did you find that is a lot of that and it said it's something that you liked a lot. Sure. Yeah

Speaker 1: that. Even back in in in high school like I was saying like my best classes Guero in English and history and enter law school. I wrote for the student newspaper and did policy research and in a lot of kind of critical thinking and reading when into that wasn't anything like law school, like my prescription got so much worse after the first year is from all the late-night reading that I had to do and it's It can be a little bit overwhelming. I think especially having an engineering mindset of of wanting to order things and laws a lot like that too. But you have to really cut through a lot of the extraneous information in in the reading to get to the core of the issues. I think I became a much more focused reader and an understanding for example in a in a typical case. It starts out with actual factual narrative Genesis the story of what happened and then you get into the the actual legal issues and then there's a general format called Iraq which is issue rule analysis conclusion.

Speaker 3: So you can kind of find you can in good writing at least you can

Speaker 1: kind of find what the issue is and from that and what what's the what's the rule? What's the analysis behind it in the what's the conclusion and that can help in any document whether it's long or shorter complex or simple but you have information on on the pager on the screen that you needed to still in some way and I think both lie and Engineering has helped me identify what the problem is. He has the engineering side of his figuring out what the sticking points are with the what may be the unknowns are and then the law and how I think about approaching legal analysis really good to what are the what what do I need to know that? I don't know now and how can I apply when I dunno to that to the issue and then the conclusion part is I think the bread and butter of being a lawyer. Every issue is going to be tricky no issues going to be black and white like we said and the people your client or leaving the beginning of the engineers the agency in my case that's looking for your advice doesn't want to be told that it's hard but you know, they know it's hard because they asked you to help with the legal department to take a look at it. And so I guess what I'm saying is you can have all of these elements of you can understand the problem really. Well you can you can understand the rule you can understand case law, but if you if you end up saying well I don't know. It's pretty tricky head that doesn't really get you very far and I think some other engineering having to clear recommendation that's supported by everything that came before I think is in business to and I'm sure and Justin Life coming down with an actual conclusion knowing that you might be wrong but also having the being humble enough to accept that if you are on there when you are wrong, you can go back and take another look at that the analysis and that you know, you just wanted to be able to get a ride in the end. So that's reading comprehension is more technical than I thought I would it was and it really helps me get through. Really long faces where I don't need to know 95% of the ace to do my legal analysis or a 300-page environmental report about the site. I don't need to read all of it. I can ask the technical expert the engineer of the scientist what the X what the issue is and where I should looking and so I think that's what comes in handy for sure in my in my day-to-day job is just just knowing what's in front of me and being able to take what I know or what's on the page and and analyzing it and then spitting out a recommendation

Speaker 3: but at the same time also working on a master's separately. Is that right? What while you're going through this day with the law degree and all the reading it wasn't just enough.

Speaker 1: So I'll talk a little bit about how I got into the public policy during law school and it had to do with work that I did during The Environmental Policy research that I was going with the professor got me at least help get me an internship in Washington DC for that gap. Between undergrad and law school where I work on energy policy and the work that I did there help me get in touch with a professor who was at the Humphrey School of public affairs at the University of Minnesota and I got in contact with her my first year in law school and said, hey, I've been doing this research on carbon capture and sequestration, which was an interesting Bridge of of Science and Technology and then law and I said happy doing this research. I just be interested in seeing if you had any research opportunities. And she did and I spent three years working on more carbon capture and sequestration and also hydraulic fracturing research at the time is about 20 to 2010 that issue had just Arisen or became an issue across the country in and now he has said it is widespread and and and drives a lot of energy production in the country. So getting that research job, I think planted another seed Hey, I can get this master's degree in public policy during the science technology and environmental policy it fits with my interest did it? I didn't know it existed before law school kind of like law school and I knew it existed. Obviously that wasn't considering it when I went into engineering and inform you the the decision to to pursue that, you know, you didn't want you didn't mean another year of school and and more loans and and more reading and and and it was hard the last year and basically all my friends graduated. But I think I saw how would fit into my interest and wanted to get a quote on quote softer approach compared to engineering and law to environmental and energy issues in public policy is all about storytelling developing problem statement looking at Alternatives a lot like Siri actually, but it's doing it through a lens of the public policy. So adding in layers of of politics of social science in and then I really analytical research in in the what Solutions are going to work for forgiving problem that I think to be that kind of married the law and the engineering part of my experiences in and I'm really glad that I that I did that did the public policy degree. and I'd recommend people who who wanted working government or who want to working in a regular regulated industry or nonprofit or politics to look at a public Affair school because I think you get exposed to a really wide range of Policymakers the people who are leading foundations and nonprofits people in government leadership roles the wide variety of the people that who who are free agents of public affairs degree. draws people from all over really technical background to social work to you know, anything in between and I think that marrying the technical side to to the public affairs type degree if if you want to have the combination of Engineering on and maybe not practicing engineering kind of like this. Like I did think I'm really happy that I pursued that and then decided to to take the GMAT after some time in my one all year. I think it's

Speaker 3: great. You know, like what are you going to get from it? And it sounds like even though you were getting a graduate degree when you're deciding to get a second graduate degree. You went through a similar process and that's awesome. It's like, okay. What am I going to get from this if I left I was going to soften me a little bit going around me out a little bit more in my area of interest. You also talked about getting that tool is going to help you get a network with protective potentially be beneficial in the realm you want to go into and I think those are great big big picture takeaways for those listening of even if you know, you can use a second graduate degree to do kind of the same thing, you know, even why don't people get their PHD in something going to Masters Inn. Not like there's different ways. Do I think it's the most common in like JD MD marinas to do like as Republic Affairs Masters in Business type stuff to I don't know. I don't know any phds who get a masters in a completely different thing other than maybe business but it depends write it. Like if you're listening like what what could you gain from it? And what would that tool give you and maybe it does make sense and in your case, and it's definitely an option. So I think that's awesome. That's great. You're able to evaluate that I mean, it sounds like A little bit of Life random Choice has allowed you to realize the door was open like it cuz it's nothing. I like to tell people realizes you have to be in a place in any given time to realize that something's an option. If you have to realize it when you have to realize that there is a door that you could walk through cuz you don't sometimes know that that's impossible door and then to you also have to walk through it by getting the degree but it can be equally hard to realize that there's even a door there to walk through in some stuff. Some of that is just life chances, you know, if there were these random random things but it's also initiative on your part to where you can you email people and just saying hey is there door here I can walk through and I'm interested. Or maybe I like that then I can decide if I'm going to walk through it or not make sense. But I think that's a lot of the story. Thus far has been a lot of it sounds like you doing a lot of lot of work, you know kind of behind the scenes trying to figure out what I want to do talking with people and I think that's great for those listening. You know, it's a lot of life is kind of random chat. I'm in the more you talk to people in the more you kind of exploring the more chances you'll be able to realize you can take on so I think that's that's awesome in sounds like it's got you to where we are today, and I may be a silly question for a word as to worry about it because it's me, can you tell me what what is your day today? Look like I mean, can you walk me through what a typical day is for you and kind of who you're an explanation of kind of what it's like so I'm I'm a Staff attorney at the

Speaker 1: Minnesota Pollution Control agency. And so that's the state of Minnesota's environmental regulatory agency. Michigan is the DEQ. So there's different names for the agency. I'm at but every state has something like like the mpca. Summer Staff attorney there's six or seven of us attorneys who are supporting an agency that I think is around a thousand people and we split up by subject matter generally and so I have a role supporting the air quality and the remediation groups and so are land are my two by two areas and and I think I like being in having those areas under my under my belt because it so much of it is dealing with for working with Engineers on air pollution mean that I took a class and and or I'm fixing up Superfund sites and understanding Quan groundwater contamination and everything like that sell my my day-to-day life. There's a fair amount of meetings that go to I work in an advisory role basically so very few if any projects are never mind about going to be working necessarily on something that I'm creating to put out into the world. I review those or work with program staff as they're creating them typical day might be a morning meeting working on a rulemaking for example where we had an agency are developing standards the same type of standards that I had to try to interpret in colleges at the co-op and returning my coop. So I'll be meeting with the project team who's actually working on the technical analysis of of the rule and part of my job is to make sure that we're following the right process. If there are any questions about the authority of the agency under the law or an interpretation for the rulemaking, I'll go back and do some research on that other things are work on or compliance and enforcement. So if the facility has an exceedance on a stack test or in some sort of emission control unit. The agency could take enforcement actions while sit in on those in and make sure that we're presenting our case basically in the most robust way and that we're doing that were exciting to the right rules and statutes. So that that takes a chunk of my day and that could be anything from an internal meeting to meeting with opposing counsel for the regulated party and a lot of meetings and also some longer-term research projects agency has a policy question that they want legal in put on to to understand the options that are available to them all sit there and and do some research and Talk to the program staff in come up with a recommendation. So there's a lot of variety and in the work I do and I and I get to interact with a lot of I want a project at very different stages in their life. So it's either I'm working on cases from the 80s. a lot of Superfund in cases where there's contamination from a company that was dissolved 40 years ago the contamination still there and it's working with property owner current owners of the property near by owners of the property if the regular parties the responsible person to Stone Around working with them to to figure out what they need to do to clean up the side and so it I get to work with a lot of different projects in a lot of different people from leadership at the agency to opposing counsel to management to staff. And so I think one of those girls that to serve me is to be able to understand what the issue is in that kind of talked about this earlier, but you know it. I'm talking to program staff about an issue that you may be like the leadership has an interest in that I'm going to brief them on a separate meeting or something really getting to the core of what maybe it's a project manager is running into trying to piece out. What's a legal issue. What's more, maybe a programmatic agency issue? That doesn't have a legal components? At it and try to understand what it was actually going on in that is at a site for example in the groundwater. I usually get as much longer answer then then I need for what what does the Grand water look like under the site. It's usually 30 minutes later all I'll say OK grade. So it's in Hopkins or something. But I think that interpreting distilling the information again is something that I do. I'm just basically it's a vessel for information and you have to be careful or I think about how I'm presenting it to the next audience

Speaker 3: started out even in our conversation your startup saying like, you know in high school you were interested in some of these environmental things need pursued that up until now and now you're getting to to work in that in an area that sometimes we don't think about we think about environmental issues and what's going on, but you kind of like it's feels like you had maybe not completely clear but an idea of what Wanted to do when you've been able to eat to get there because of a

Speaker 1: desire to work in a specific area as opposed to

Speaker 3: working in a specific technical field of that. Are you at the place where it where you're happy with the steps? You've gone to get there and feel like you know how high school you and what you started off with it would it would be content with where you're at now we're

Speaker 1: going through some old school things and I came across an essay from college where I said, I'd like to go to law school and work for environmental agency after that and I did that and and that's great. It wasn't a direct route to get there. And and I think maybe that's something that you listen to might be interested in as I did not a magically get a new kind. I guess my dream job at a environmental agency right out of law school as I started out working in the regulatory department at a nacho. Gas utility and did that because it's an energy issue and involves law and regulation. I ran into classmate from law school was working at the Attorney General's office about the six months into working at the natural gas utility and met him for coffee and then we had been acquaintances and law school but not really close friends and he was just describing the work you did and and mention that he had that they had an opening at the Attorney General's office doing Public Utilities law and some of my background of bed and energy. I was working in the energy field. I took the opportunity and I applied and I got it and spend four years at the AG's office representing residential and small-business ratepayers. Try to keep rates low. And I just got my network open with friends from law school who were working in the energy and environmental law fields and my buddies emailed me and said that there has been an opening at the pollution control agency to be a staff attorney and he sent me a few openings from there before and I didn't apply we just wasn't the right time but at that point in October, I think 2018 is it seemed like it was the right time and and I decided to apply to the agency and I and I got the job later the next year. I think she hasn't been a direct route for sure, but You know, I always wanted had kind of a long-term goal in in mind. And and I think that that help me say yes or no when to say yes and no one to say no to opportunity is it you're working at the AG's office got me experience doing more of litigation work and more advocacy work and and arguing in front of the Public Utilities Commission. And that was a really good experience. But I also I think wanted the perspective of working at for the governmental agency and being a regulator and you never not really know if the timing is right, but I think early on at least for me. I've been really open to New Opportunities and and that comes through keeping a strong at work, especially when you don't need a job. Thank you know what it's just like the human aspect of it and the people You want to have a connection to people especially during these times and and I think not working in every other time. He is just a good way to kind of keep a foot in the door worried about what people are doing and seeing if it's like you something that you like to do finding more people to talk to you and those are really been drivers from everything I've done in my career is having just maintaining connections and it takes it takes work and if there's not a an immediate payoff other than you can maintain your friends and learn about their lives, which is a great thing. But but in terms of you know when you're not looking for it in the right place at the right time and then knowing when to say yes or pursuing an opportunity has been a big part of the how I've gotten to where I am.

Speaker 3: There's a door I didn't realize that accept that existed before I had a randomly when I got my MBA there's another person who is not really in the program, but we're kind of acquaintances and he reached out to me. We haven't talked in like 5 years. I'm just wondering what you up to. Yeah, you know, can we get on a phone call and just got to reconnect and I don't need you doing this cool thing and super and I didn't realize that was and we just got back in touch. You know, it's been 45 6 years and I don't I got done with the car before they cause like I don't know about this. I'm not I don't know but when I get done with this is awesome. Like why don't why don't I reach back out to the people that you meet that you interact with your like like I get along with you. Well, like we're of similar interest in those people come in and out of your license off in technology today allows us to kind of keep in touch with them whether through Facebook or LinkedIn or whatever for better or worse. You can always kind of see people posting about their thoughts for a. Of infinity afterwards I guess and Better side of that is you can stay connected to those people that you know, who knows. Maybe I'll have a door that might interest you at some point and as Pat Bagby said in a previous episode, you know, never say never goes to know if you know if someone comes and talks to you and has has a job opportunity when I explained it, you know when you might you might like it and we talk all the time about how job descriptions are atrocious and Engineering for actual for actually describing what you do everyday. Is it also true in law are you can you get a pretty good idea for my job description what your life's going to be like hard? Is it pretty much. I never could tell

Speaker 1: I think I'm lost the job description, but I think it's more the type of law and where you're practicing it. So if you're practicing from

Speaker 3: contacts, you can pull out exactly go to the positions are

Speaker 1: you know, he would be like but if you know working has, Minnesota Small firm doing property law wills and trusts for something in a small town is very different than being an associate of the big law firm in the city doing corporate litigation. And so you got to know what you're in for. I've been lucky enough of the place that works at of going to places where work-life balance is really prioritize and I think certainly I know that that's some engineering firms. I'm sure are are the same way as you know, one is the expectation of 80 hours a week or in the other one might be closer to regular hours and some of the laws very similar, I guess in that way in and you can make a decision to have both a life outside of your work and if you're feeling life at work, but it it does take some active thought about the opportunity looks considering and I think more so now than when I was in law school just that, you know the being at the at the best place might not result in the best life and I think that That that's for some people it is the best Inn in both instances. But but I think as you get older and have different experiences, you kind of learn how to prioritize thing and I feel like I've been abusing job of that but it's it's a constant struggle.

Speaker 3: They'll be plenty of work no matter how much I get done today. So still be plenty more tomorrow. Sometimes you got to walk out of the office while you think it's on fire and come back the next day to realize it's still there. So I'm so thanks man. I really really appreciate you coming on the show. We learned a lot today. I mean it. I think this is just such great exposure for those listening in many aspects. So they're not even if you listen to this and you know, I'd that doesn't have any interest to me like that still super valuable or if you listen to Holy Cow, like I did not realize that was a door I could even walk through. So I appreciate you bringing that option up for people so they can realize what that's like in it. Interested how how you do that and what the steps are like, so thanks for your time and wish you the best of luck in the dream job.

Speaker 1: Thank you both.

Speaker 3: Man, the things you can do with an engineering degree. I don't know. I feel kind of a cool round that we started restoring the show where we start to have. These other people are doing other things cuz I think it speaks to so many of the big theme that we see throughout the show, you know, whether at the broad critical thinking skills. He's other things than you know, Joe took that went into law school, which is great and I just I think it's cool to be able to see you can do so much. That would be the biggest mammal that I love her that kind of like the framework that I didn't realize this is beside you like a lot of engineering is the how how we're going to build the car how you know, we're going to make the wheel spin correctly and not come off the car how we're going to you know, make a hammer do such and such but is also the the Y side and it can be helpful to have engineering background on the Y side two of me know why do we need to have these rules and Joe's case but even in the business case like why do we make the product? Why does it have these features and not these and you can use a engine background to really be Beneficial in those why type careers? Yeah, I would say that if you if you folks on the how you can be a great engineer, but thinking about the Y really steps it up a level and thinking about ya like you said, why are we doing this? What is this? What is the importance of our work houses fit into greater things that can that can take a lot of different shapes and while I wouldn't have thought about law and Engineering the furthest thing from my mind, but it's interesting to see how Joe did that and it's it's really interesting to me to see how we started off because he wanted to work in this environmental space. And so it was I know engineering from family I will go do engineering but then realizing that these are my interests lie and something else and in policy and regulations and lime. There's a y p way for me to do that will still be working environmental issues. And I think sometimes we forget that they're there are some people who are I'm an engineer. That's what I am. That's what I do where it's like being the engineer as important as other people where it's what they're working on and can they are the bigger things are important to them in life that they want to do and I think it's interesting how Joe did that a few different paths to actually get there and be able to get to a place where it where he's happy and feel like he's doing meaningful working it in my app. So we talked a little bit about the idea of mentors and how they can be really really beneficial and they can help you out a ways but once and it's interesting you potentially that mentors can bias you towards something that may be right. Nothing really happened with Joe but I mean you could say that, you know, maybe maybe the parents being Engineers buys him towards engineering which I don't think was bad for her, but she thinks ought to of of a gouging what are your situational by seas that are going to pull you to a certain career that may not get you out until you want to be thinking big picture of where do I want to go and then trying to figure out what are the best careers? Be kind of get you there, but ultimately and engineering-type education could still be very very possible to a lot of different careers and beneficial. So I you don't even if you don't know it's it can be a really solid having sorry, but it's really hard. I mean it so it can be really hard. If you don't think you want to be an engineer if there's maybe a different path you could take but I just had no idea. You know, how can managers in your life by seu Navy way that's not helpful in just being cautious that but why make sure the advice or getting on the how matches up with the Y well good to talk to you do to this is a good one. I'm looking forward to your episode patience donut dispenser something that may be enough to let down. Perfect. Alright, thanks for listening this episode of engineer your career with Troy Bauman and Brennan Tamarac for more information about the show visit our website at byc podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with Troy and I if you or someone, you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey, I would like to be on the show go on the website send us a short bio and we made it to invite you to come out and share your story. And finally if you want to show your support, please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice.