Speaker 3: Welcome back to the next episode of EYC episode today will be a little different as we welcome Tom damn into the mic to share a substantial industry experience as well as significant academic experience working with engineering students as a career advisor in much more time received his Bachelors or Masters of Science in mechanical engineering from the University of michigan-dearborn for Chrysler Corporation. What is now dematic and then Steelcase totaling over 30 years of experience after still FaceTime with the Grand Valley State University to lecture assist with the internship program in mentoring the career center in 2017 time move back to the side of Michigan to work at the University of Michigan's career center login to spend much more time with his grandkids sounds mentorship has helped many already and we hope to amplify that by having him on the show today Tom. Welcome to

Speaker 2: UIC. never back with the next

Speaker 3: episode of engineer career Brennan on the line Brennan how's it going man could you see you then I'm here

Speaker 2: I'm still still in my work clothes that's that's that's what the timing is today I'm feeling fancy

Speaker 3: working late feeling fancy

Speaker 2: working working later later later than I was but that's okay

Speaker 3: sometimes it feels good to stay in the work clothes you don't feel to feel productive

Speaker 2: t-shirt at least it looks better

Speaker 3: on the audio sound and get on the audio has got that deep voice but anyways we're going to have a guest that you have been really excited about that time a long time ago and We Know It interacted with such great connection with him that I've always wanted to bring on the show cuz he's got the history that I think a lot of people are going to find the value and so. Time welcome welcome to the show really glad that you're here

Speaker 1: thank you

Speaker 3: A younger Town younger days and in can can you bring us up to speed on who you are and what your experience with industry and

Speaker 1: students is Junior College there before? I leave then went on to get my bachelor's in mechanical engineering from University of michigan-dearborn where I also then had a great opportunity. I co-opted Chrysler Corporation undergraduate and was offered to programs at Chrysler among the couple other offers. It was a good time for mechanical engineers, but I selected the Chrysler Institute of engineering where I stayed right at University of michigan-dearborn got my Master's also mechanical engineering and also had rotating assignments of work at price of

Speaker 3: Corporation in your master's degree.

Speaker 1: Absolutely experiential and I had some input as to what area I would be working at so I had three undergraduate. Passionate Chrysler and then Aiden their research and development area 511 experiences before I even completed my masters

Speaker 2: have a lot of different experiences to have special for you in completing your degree. So at that time to change a little bit I think but it's still so good people can still be a cop experience. Maybe just not 11 of them

Speaker 3: right after your masters that I guess you were still are you technically an employee during your

Speaker 1: Masters. Absolutely. It was a wonderful program. I had a few opportunities to look at the history of Chrysler and realize that they had some downtime spot every three years throughout most of their life. So you pretty much had to get to Promotions because you probably get knock-back 130r hat that just in my home was Grand Rapids. So I went back to Grand Rapids the job in the material handling industry for a number of years.

Speaker 3: So this was pretty recently after you finished. Masters recycles, if you're trying to do something it's not a bad idea to try and look in the timing of your industry cuz sometimes it can bite you and you know, you kind of want to be ready for it. So but sometimes you can be moved back home already know you got to change the fuse that I know that may be desired circumstance as an opportunity in Rabil to do something positive with it. So that's nice for you to go back to Michigan to this great handling or what were you doing there?

Speaker 1: And then that was about 10 years and I spent 17 years of steel case. And then I went to bed and I'll State University and had 15 years there seems like I'm really old

Speaker 3: Amazon warehouse material movers, right and then steal the huge furniture company.

Speaker 1: I got to start back as an engineer each time and kind of proved myself as a person and a technical person first before they would put me into management. But most of the time 30 years in Industry. I spent probably about 70% of that and some sort of leadership of projects or departments are groups.

Speaker 3: Maybe one more down the track as I

Speaker 1: probably should have could have would have for my personality and what I did the next 30 years and that was the other Chrysler oportun But I've always enjoyed product development. I'll rather than manufacturing personally and the Masters I didn't really use a lot during my thirty years and industry but then when I went to Grand Valley and now I've been working at University of Michigan doing career advising for engineering students, I wouldn't have had those opportunities without that Masters in engineering.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay, so I guess so it's the end it's the end of Steelcase time and you are well and you're kind of seeing that maybe you can do something different. I guess. I was supposed to talk about what made you think to go back into Academia, I guess I mean thoughts on how that all worked

Speaker 1: professor at work mostly in the career center. There was an element of teaching every semester we can talk about that little bit to the decision when I was a senior undergrad. Are the dean of U of M Dearborn engineering asked me to teach a couple of laps sections and I was pretty honored cuz he was teaching the the lecture and there were four sections of lab in the other lab instructor was a tenured professor a full professor and then me I didn't have a degree yet another and associates degree, but I really enjoyed that and it went really well. So my plan was to go out in the industry my plan coming out of my my bachelor's what's the going interest rate for 10 years ground myself in the real world and then go go to Academia and teach. It just took me 30 years to get there instead of town. I'll be paid well and join what I was doing work with great people raising a family and I felt very blessed with those 30 years.

Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll get get into more of some of that the future planning things there but I got sarli anything up. I'm having a plan of what you wanted to do and not necessarily given up on that like it be any opportunities that come along and you know, it was it was 30 years, but hey, I can still go do it. Yeah because I had the educational experience or whatever. So that's awesome. Something people always keep in mind as you don't know what's going to happen in the future. If you could come back to what you were actually planned on it might take longer to thought

Speaker 1: towards the end of steel case. I was teaching adjunct. I was teaching project management their master's program. And so they knew me and they knew me as a teacher and that was a first contract at Grand Valley was to take engineering course teaching responsibility my first of two semesters, I thought engineering and some of those books. I hadn't tracked him 25 Ears are salt and I was standing in front of a bunch of seniors. It just took the prelim class and I was teaching machine designed to and it's okay. I took two days off and I suffered because I wasn't as prepared as I should have been I should have work those days.

Speaker 3: I didn't realize that when you came back you were teaching. I mean our interaction was outside of that realm so it makes sense now, but that's that's really interesting in that environment. It's funny to think I could imagine like tomorrow you're going to be put in front of a classroom and seniors who had the prereq guy. That's that's intimidating and it's it's a lot of work to preppy not if you're going to talk to an hour to a group of people, you know, they say 5 hours or whatever every 5 hours for an hour every time you're prepping a class so I can imagine there was a ton of work. But it's cool. I took two back to Brian's my two that you were also while you're in in industry. Self-reflection you saying you know, this is good. Like I think that's important to like while you while you're in a job to to look back and say okay like yeah it maybe it's not exactly but this is still really I got a good thing going here and okay, maybe I don't need to switch yet. And I think that's that's really really good too. But I end up working out, you know, you're able to teaching part-time to pick what that you can you were working full-time and you were just teaching night classes is that

Speaker 1: reductions in Workforce. They cut their staff from 22000 worldwide to behalf of that and I was caught up in that. I was director at that point of different things in the end of technical Learning and Development. So I was part of the Steelcase University in the first four ways a reduction Workforce in that era. I was a decider The 5th Wave. I was one of the ones that was excused, but they gave me a nice package. Money and health benefits and outplacement services in I pretty much called up to the dean of engineering. Dr. Paul falkowski at Grand Valley and after looking around to taking an interview and industry was really not a heart to continue that you know, it's not like I've been there done that for 30 years. Let's go. Let's do Academia. I said make me an offer and I'll stop looking he's what was that eight months is only a contract to begin with, but I had kind of the backing of the suitcase package to support whatever financial needs and and Health Care Etc. So I gave her a shot and that was tough and I had a few other opportunities at Grand Valley. The next one was a grant-funded one working for it was more manufacturing and and the junior college on a number of programs, and then eventually I got in the career center that where I spent most of my time at Grand Valley working with Engineering & Computing in Grand Valley State University's Career Center.

Speaker 3: A little bit more about that rule. I guess what where you were what were your kind of day-to-day experiences in that

Speaker 1: while I was intimately involved with the co-op and internship programs are the engineering program at Grand Valley requires three semesters of co-op in alternating Co-op work-study work study after they passed the first two years, except what? So I will teach a clock prep class in the fall and eventually we had enough students of the other professors would teach also but I led that so in the fall I would teach and then the other two semesters we had the professors go out and do co-op site visits about three-quarters of the way through the cops are Masters you'd be assigned about 10 students and every week the student would need to email the that Professor the assigned professor. In this case me and I would respond with my suggestions, you know, whatever deal with issues just see how they're doing. Then we go out and visit them and actually give them a grade I would so the other two semesters that was my teaching is through the co-op on the computer inside the only require two one semester internship and they didn't have a prep class. We would have I would work with a professor over there and give a presentation about How to prepare for the internship when we get two or three students. So anyway, I helped that part developer prep class some of the engineering one some differences but basically get them ready to go out there and work and then we saw students that were prepared they knew how to find a job and then have some insights as to how to do well on their coop.

Speaker 2: I think I put you in a really unique place to be able to do that given that you work so long and Industry ahead of time. I I know some some Career Centers, you know, maybe have young people who don't have his long Industries. Set a timer to Larisa Academia. And so it's coming from people leader in management of a company that I'll be like. Hey, I hate college students like this is what you need to do. I actually know what I'm talking about cuz I had to die degrade people in the workforce. So what did you find that somewhat for filling in this aspect of being able to take that real real world experience and kind of hopefully give undergrad serve a leg up in their in their career hunts.

Speaker 1: Absolutely and then that continued when I came to Dexter area, then I had an opportunity to work full time at U of M and I told him I don't want full time. I'm semi-retired and I want to do that. So that the first year here I didn't but the last three school years. I work part-time at U of M in that was in Trier. For career advising for engineering students and fellow students with honestly that I am not always that wise but I think I have enough experiences that can usually pull something out that relates to their situation whether they're succeeding wildly and I'm supportive or they're having problems finding a job or whatever. I can usually find something in my bag of experiences that that relates. Yes. It was it was good. It was a good set of experiences for me to work in Academia.

Speaker 3: I mean, I remember sitting I've been very fortunate to sit down with mentors that I've assigned front of a night. I felt like well, you know, I'm just this is helpful, but you know not great. But I've also said I can tell have leaped me a had way more than I could have ever by myself and I I can imagine a lot of students at your work with were really able to talk to get a lot of great advice from you that way and that's fine. I'm so excited to have you on the show because I think a lot of people this thing are probably in that similar point where there an undergraduate student and they know that life until school is life. I would argue Disney's cuz I'm always in school but that you know, they're leaving your senior. They're getting ready to graduate and get a cortical real job and all his things and it's hard and it's going you're trying to learn and soak up as much as you can and so, you know, what I'd like to do is just kind of probe in a little bit on scenes from your experience, you know, I didn't ask you to bring an anti and you're really just you know, if if you were to think back with the students you interact with you on those undergraduate engineering students. What would be some of the key things that you would think that you kind of can of he had to keep telling people? Like what are there are there key things that it seems like that undergraduate students are just not able to get out of the University experience that they really kind of need before they go in an industry

Speaker 1: way back in junior high school high school with a job shadow put your nose into it. Like we talked about little bit civil engineering great sounds like you're beautiful civil engineer. Well, do you like working outside, you know in the mud in the rain in the heat in the coal go out and try it and he might love it if I love to be outside. And then as you advance then internships Co-op if you think you want to do research try research nugget on a research project. And and see if that's what you like to do. There was a gentleman that we don't was his name or where it was but spent 25 years in the chemical manufacturing industry hated every day, and now was older and trying to get a different profession going and ask him. Why did you do that? My dad wanted me to it's like you don't want to be that first. You want to find a job you like doing?

Speaker 3: All right. Yeah, you are a new job that you're not going to like wake up in the morning and dread going into work. I mean, it's not always attainable. Like I'm people talk about it and try to find a job you love to do in mean that we tried to try to find a job. It may not be possible. I could say there's a chance that you're just it's just not going to work but it's definitely not going to work. If you don't try

Speaker 2: the only way to know if you would like something is to do it as many, you know, your presentations you can go to with companies trying to sell you stuff or whatever like that is the high-level niceties of the job that does not anywhere touch the details of what you're going to do everyday, and so I think they're getting As soon as you can I think it's probably the biggest piece that people can do is you don't know what it's like so you do it and it looks like that example you want to be stuck doing it for 25 years and then find out later that this is not what I want to do.

Speaker 1: I need to see the different perspectives. I've worked at University is one that has mandatory internship or Co-op got to do it and I I really see the benefit all those dudes. I mean, I I can think of the 15 years I spent there was probably a handful of students. I thought they're not ready to work in their profession. All the rest of them were I mean they and they also knew how to find a job. We'd invest in those Co-op or internship prep classes as they were Rising Juniors or well actually sophomores and Then we went to see him because they would go out and work knew how to get the co-op job. They were pretty well Network. A lot of them ended up one graduate upon graduation working for that employer. If they didn't have a great experience. They had friends at work for other employers Network in the hallways. Also was very powerful

Speaker 3: being in high school and looking at Kettering verse Michigan Tech in remembering things while Kettering is mandatory co-ops in at the time in high school. I just I definitely didn't recognize the network bonus of that for sure. Like I thought you had getting some hands-on experience would be good, but I felt like I could get my own Co-op stuff to Michigan Tech working out, but I guess I think it's a great piece of advice on for that for those listening. I mean to really realize the value of having a university that's dedicated resources to help you find be successful at the biggest difference of the mandatory first. Not for me. Not mandatory setting like you'll have career services and stuff, but I doubt they have the amount of resources in the department trying to help students get and be successful in co-ops. I'm as opposed to mandatory.

Speaker 1: And that's the other part of the experience. I've had the last three years is that a research institute internship is named require research assignment, and I personally my personal experience is more on the internship industry, but I need to respect research. I just don't have that experience. But still I think I am I'm highly suggestive to those students in a research institution that doesn't require internship or research go do it, but it's a little bit more on them sure. There's resources to help them. And if you're at a institution like University of Michigan all employers come there, I mean a Grand Valley we had to develop employee relationships specialist in the Fortune 100 companies at U of M. You just schedule don't want to come

Speaker 3: did you feel like it would pinhole suit and so like because I would like us to come in and they will get assigned to company like you what did it ever seem like maybe four maybe the upper half of the distribution that that was hurting them because they were forced to go to this company where they probably could have got a job at a company that have been a better fit. Do you have a lot of that or would you say, you know,

Speaker 1: we wasn't mandatory?

Speaker 3: Stop it being you know, you're forcing everyone into an assigned position that could limit their potential

Speaker 1: interview and employment opportunity. We just gave tried to give the students the foundation to go out and do that, but they had a interviews they had to make their decision and we didn't tell him which companies they had to work for hard to develop those companies in West Michigan is Grand Valley. It was a good gig even in 08090 Troy Farley my boss at Grand Valley tells a story that it was almost Christmas time and everybody else or just having fun ballet and back and I was on the phone cuz I had 17 students who got laid off that month and they they had to go back to work in January and the good news is every one of them got a job and it's not just on me, you know. I was well supported by our director for the School of Engineering Anyway and an implosion West Michigan, but yeah, I think when I think of that I think of a particular person I could name them but I won't we even told the students at Grand velas Los we was three semester same company. So we kind of the company's knew that and there are rare instances where I even helped to find a different company. There was one student that comes to mind that we couldn't really hold down to that and he ended up working for a local Aerospace, and then NASA and CERN in Switzerland. And now he's back at Nasa full time. I've been in touch with him a couple times you was just you know Exemplar stood and had a Wunderlist week. We try to hold him back a little bit. But you know, it was it was a gentle hold back. It's kind of like just let him go it's different. It's not the program but The other example would be this one student that were two semesters at a company doing Photoshop. I mean she learned how to do that in two weeks. And then that's all they had to do basically and I helped her leave that company and go get an international assignment and That it changed your life. I mean

Speaker 3: about being involved as if you have good advisers, which I'm sure you were time, you know, you're able to realize like a this this isn't good for them. I mean it was good for them for the first two weeks, but maybe we got to make an adjustment in helping to

Speaker 1: adapt.

Speaker 3: Well, I mean still better that than ever you don't even having those negative experiences can be very positive and you talked about that a lot on the show this idea of going out there and have any experience if it's negative can be potentially more valuable because you wanted that you don't want to do that and that now I just incredibly important to But you know right side and I'm trying to think back to being a first year college student in if I'm listening to our discussion. I think one thing that comes to my head is like yeah. Well, what if what if I have no idea what I want to do like you okay, you say go get experience, but what if what if I literally have no idea what I want. I was good at math science. And so people tell me to become an engineer. So here I am, you know, I did like talk to people that have been in a bad spot to wait, what are your thoughts on that position and how how soon can work through that

Speaker 1: test administered by people are smarter than I although I've done a bunch of that that test personality that test skills and try to kind of mine who you are and then align you with jobs at might align with those skills. I mean the big three in my mind are people data and sings and I like all three of them but definitely people is the strongest one. So hence leadership and that's what I've always gravitated towards our jobs that require fermada dealing with me. I can do data you know it for a while. I enjoy spreadsheets and calculating sayings and but not forever not a lot not always and then I like to build things. I'm an engineer. So I'd like to get my hands dirty. But you know if I had a choice of hanging out with four people playing golf or whatever or rebuilding an engine. How do I fix it all more for the social aspect and necessarily the sport

Speaker 2: important point of what do you actually like? What it what are the areas within engineering you could do, you know you could be at you could be in management. There are jobs that are going to be more hands on their jobs and be more data Focus their jobs me more process focused and then I guess in each each. Let's call that the engineering Majors you have all these sub-disciplines of that which can somebody can be scary cuz it just multiplies the potential options there are but also if you can if you can get loaded experience in each of those methadone to whittle out some now and then that way later, you know, okay. No I want to do I want to be the things or 1B the date or whatever which can really help you later on, but I didn't go back. Having to have the experience would have to find out what you like to know like

Speaker 1: another internship. If you didn't like that one or find a different department was in that company and that's kind of what I thought was ideal was Grand Valley's program has three assignments same company different departments. I actually managed the claw program at Steelcase for a couple years and what we would do first semester put them first semester a co-op is put them in the mall Shopper Tesla. So they learn the product and sum of the function that it had to go through and then the second one is put them on manufacturing. We'll figure out how we build it and volume and then the circle to be product development those two foundational pieces figure out how we design the product and I thought that was ideal for my perspective.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's great. I think that's that that has a big mindset towards development. I think when I started as a young engineer when I started in 2007 in college, I felt like you didn't seem like four. Of time companies went away from that. They weren't so into developing the co-op's cuz out of money and you're going to lose some but you still got to develop them cuz you're going to make them you're going to make them better engineers and that's in the movie almost a civic duty of the big companies, but other people date of things, I love that so, you know if it was like I don't I don't even know where to start like there's there's kind of a framework for a people data thing. See if you can go out and find it an option or even when the interview like this is a people are dead or things type of job and you know, start start somewhere and if you don't like it, I think I think that's helpful because I mean it's hard when you're looking at Infiniti and saying which way do I stop it's taking me at 8. I think that's great advice for those who sings I really appreciate that. You know, I think I think we talked about this before in the show like the university is it just not set up to do everything you can't do everything you can teach equations really? Well, you can do some of the things for the others are some things that it doesn't do. Well in a lot of that unfortunately is around this. How do I get a job? It's not really designed for that. It's a machine designed to teach knowledge is not answering machine designed to get you a job. I mean, it's that says primary purpose and so I think when undergraduate leave engineering they they sometimes are lacking things nothing. Big element of like experience I get experience like that tells what are there other other other aspects of being an egg a good engineer that you feel like University's struggling it just so people who are listening know that they need to try to go out of their way to cultivate that in their skill-set.

Speaker 2: Maybe it what is a student to exit the co-op program like in Grand Valley. For example, what did they have at? Someone who leaves a university without having that experience has like what's the what's the difference there? That makes someone more or less ready to different skills. They've gained while doing it employed

Speaker 1: and they're ready to go. They're ready to be. You know,

Speaker 3: how would you define ready to go? Like

Speaker 1: well after a year, especially if they go back to the same company, they've caught was they have a year of experience and there was a 8-month senior project also that was typically with a different employer but a real Machine typically that they would have to design build and test and then Implement and they wouldn't graduate till that customer for their senior project signed off and accepted it and there were students graduate right away for a month or two or three anyway. I think just so you know Grandpa always a little more Blue Collar a lot of those Bachelor engineer's we're going to go on to get a master's or Ph.D. They didn't have enough her Masters, but not that many whereas like at University of Michigan. A lot of them will go on get a masters in the bottom will get into research and PhD good stuff. I guess I'd almost answer that based on the corporate perspective leading the car program a Steelcase. I establish three goals. And the first one was clearly number one Higher the good ones and you know, what is building your bench. So from a car you should really have development programs reaching back at least into the undergraduate so that when they graduate, you know, they're ready to go at your account and want to go to your company because they have experienced that they know of you the other two or to give something back to the profession. And then the third one is to get some productive work out of them. I mean I didn't want to have the students just be reading and studying, you know, whatever subject supervisor wanted them to I wanted them to do productive work as much as they could in challenge

Speaker 2: part of that process. Those are doing that. What are those like specific skills are picking up is that is that understanding how to function within a within a company is a learning how to communicate. Is it learning actually like the technical skills it would take to do a job. What are some of those specific things that that those those students in that timer really kind of getting out of the experience and helping them later on

Speaker 1: and they're soft skills. They're probably almost equal importance as far as what those experiences can give it would be a little heavier on the soft skills course University destroy matching can teach equations and how to do calculus well, and then if you get out and Industry a researcher probably use calculus little more industry, you know might not you might Use that at all, but still The Logical problem-solving process and how you do it productively at that company for their product or their process. That's a big learning the technical aspect and being good at it and getting some confidence in applying whatever you've learned at University. But but also the soft skills. How do you how do you work on a team? How do you work with people? Yeah, you're the junior member in a meeting, but you got an idea. Do you raise your hand? When do you ask a question? You don't ask too many questions, but surely you don't want to get stuck in a a black hole of I don't know how to do this when somebody sit next to you has been doing it for 10 years could probably free up and get you moving. So that's that's the key one right there is when do I ask that question to my more experienced forkers?

Speaker 3: There is no. Technical hierarchy. I mean there's you and the professor in the professor has all the answers and yeah, maybe there's a person the class is a little bit smarter you could go and ask a question to but you get into industry and there are significant tears of technical knowledge that you can do I walk to this Cube and talk to someone who I know has got 10 years of experience this this person's got 20, but every time I talk to them they yell at me. So I'm not going to talk to them but they got this first new super personable, but they're not technically a strong numbing generic here. But these it's a weird social interaction that it weird social thing that you're doing. Are you trying to figure out and yeah, you don't there's no experience like that undergrad that helps you equate anything like that other than just watching sitting at your Cube and watching the guy or girl who got 5 years experience go talk to the guy or girl who's got 15 years experience about these types of problems talking the other person about to be like, okay. Well, I guess that's how I do it or being in meetings and realizing. Okay. Well that person just ask And the director she looked at him funny. So I'm probably not going to do that. You know, you pick up on these social cues when you're in that environment and I think I don't know. I see if it weird think it's not it's not chapter 1 in any textbook you can. It's experience

Speaker 1: I can think about when we were talking about this. I thought of a tool engineer, it's still can you send another gentleman manufacturing that we're just really tough but they were really good and I needed them to supply their knowledge and information on what I was working on. So I kind of want to just talk my feathers down and went and was very humble and nice we work together well, but other people go in there with a little arrogance and didn't work out so well and that's that's another thing to do is have a good attitude not an attitude cuz I have one employee. I really like, I mean you was just really good. He was a Jew Call manager of a small medium-sized company and he had a student work for my own use exact words, but he basically said that the students go around and everybody on the floor and then maybe building this product for 20 years. He's kind of like new more than they did and he was not asked back and it's kind of interesting. I saw him at the Armory one time. I was there for a gallstone. He was working out. He was in the going in the military. I don't think he got his engineering degree.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm having some humility going to the job. Even if even if your actions even if you are the more experienced person in certain ways, I was in this example that was not the case. But even times where you think you may know more it at least at least giving you a person the opportunity to to show that they may maybe they know more than you were something is is not only smart and getting to opportunity to learn from them. But I think also is a way to make someone feel good about themselves, like people like being able to share their knowledge and show that They know something about it and and hopefully you're you're interacting with someone who who has the same same ideals about that is kind about it too. But I found that you know going to someone and and kind of deferring to their knowledge at least at the start say hey, I think you might know more about this than me can't can you help me figure this out or something is at least a good way to help build build relations in the office and in the work environment and then you know, what kind of got to build that Mutual understanding so then later, you know, they might come to you but it's important to not be running around pretending, you know everything cuz that that will catch up to you. Even if you even if you don't get fired it will catch up to you eventually

Speaker 3: Adam talked about it when we talk about how you're the first year year-and-a-half you're in a sponge mode. Hopefully you can contribute something. But when you when you join on to a team there is a significant. Of time where you're just learning and you're asking dumb questions and yeah, so I think especially in that initial. Of time, it's a really really important time to be humble into Asking questions at the right time and figure out that way but did not Tim heck around as her thinking, you know as much experience matters a lot like no experience is super and get is one of the huge metrics for I don't know success in a career. Like if someone has been doing something for 20 years. They're going to be seen as as technically stronger a really really good. I know all the equations I know the stuff but if you do something for 20 years you're going to be really good at it. You're going to have seen a lot of stuff you can have talked to a lot of people that experience is important and Industry values that and don't tell someone you're doing and call me retarded people respect it too because there's a reason that a lot of people respect experienced regardless of their technical ability like experience. Is it really important? And I don't know. I don't think I I personally realize how important when I first started and Industry

Speaker 1: If you go out there and say I have a masters in engineering from this wonderful school and you don't you're just poking buttons on a machine you're going nowhere. But if you go out there to say hey, what what's your perspective? Look what can you teach me about how you manufacture this so I can go back and design the next one better. That's pretty powerful. Another thing. I just thought of that I think is important is to have a steep learning curve. I took a course in Corporate America is called novation's but one of the key takeaways was for the first time like you said, you're like a sponge and you're you're challenged you have a steep learning curve eventually. If you keep doing the same thing after years it down start to taper off and you got to be a little careful that you don't fall down the other side of the slope and this program actually said it's probably best to change things up every 3 or 4 years doesn't mean you need to leave the company. Doesn't necessarily mean you need a promotion but just do something different the challenges you that you want to do

Speaker 2: I would agree. I think I've seen that I'll save you the one case where I've seen people have been in the cruise a long time where years of experience hasn't left this early lead to overall Mastery because they've they've been doing sort of the same thing or in the same realm and haven't chose to be stretched Beyond and learn something new and I think it's that the people who choose to to do different Simon's to make what you'll hear called lateral moves for everyone was sitting out there to learn something new for one knows of the people who are eventually getting promoted and moving up. I I think it's hard. It's it's hard to get promoted in place a lot at a lot of companies, especially a large company. I'm just doing the same thing, but they're also has more well-rounded and more aware of how the business Works how the product works Innovation and in making new things and so yeah, if you get an opportunity, even if it's not for more pay or or, you know, different title like that, that's a very important step to take to learn something new.

Speaker 1: My grandpa was not an engineer. He only had an eighth grade education became a general manager of charger for it and claim for the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad. Tell me he was a top executive in charge of all the freight operations for major Railroad in that time. He always did his job. Well, he was a seven-day-a-week worker really nice guy, but he always is Boss's job. Well, it's kind of like well boss moves gets promoted who could do this while patnodes. Do you know how to do that? So that's kind of another tip to us look around. If you've been there in a little while start learning some of the senior people's work and ask to be involved with it, even if that's not your particular assignment to keep asking questions

Speaker 3: that you even dress like your boss. I mean that were at the level you buy me. I think people also realize as an analogy to the technical ability to embody the next position you want to have or be supportive of that so Hang up that I want to highlight for people is this idea of thinking about it from the corporate side thinking about it from the person who's going to make your decision? So in your case you were in charge of the coop K. And so you are you are thinking about I want these three things to happen as a clapping student like you want to realize that so that you can go into that environment and be successful and in the same way when you have when you're an employee you want to look at me like okay by manager might their boss their boss. They're going to be looking at me eventually for a promotion. What are they going to be looking at in me to make the next move? What skills do I need to have? How do I make it so that when they have a decision to make I'm the easy answer and a lot of it has to do with reflection about how the company sees me. So I just I think that mindset is good. So if your Co-op student think about how the company sees you if your employee think about all the company sees you and what you need to do to kind of set yourself up for success for that. I mean, I think I need to realize from the company side of things and I think what I was trying to It's a two-sided think like it's not just you as a student coming in to do the job. Like that's that I think a lot of students see it. Like I'm going to work to do this thing. But you're trying to be part of the Cog of the wheel of doing something like you need to be thinking about that too and how your fitting into that. Yeah. What it what I'm saying is it is hard for me to explain what it means just having a bigger picture mindset is really really helpful and I think sometimes as students and Azan young employees like you're just so caught up and I'm this employee I do this thing, but you got to stick your head up a little bit and think about that next move and then the example we were just talking about I think

Speaker 1: as you start and how do you surely want to have solid technical professional skill and that's that's going to be I don't know if it's assumed but it is surely is a good foundation to build from but I think the differentiator then is how do you work with others? How do you fit into the culture? And that's one thing a lot of people do young people don't necessarily. When they're interviewing ask a lot of questions, how would you know, I think a good question for anybody interview is well, how would you describe the culture of your company or why do you like working at your company? We know shouldn't be for the interviewer from that company though should be easy questions and answer and if they can't and they probably should have somebody else out there. So I think that that's probably more of a differentiator especially early on but you kind of need both you needs a technical professional skill and you also need ability to work with people and get things done with and through other people and eventually in leading other people if that's your choice. Are there different career paths you can take two and if you really liked the technical professional side, there's you should find a company that will still promote you and give you more responsibility. But keep you technical professional if you want to move up and leadership and management That's Amore typical career paths and you can find that at any organization.

Speaker 2: You bring up a good question there that your question that people should be asking the interviewer at something which kind of makes me think about in in your experience having worked in industry for a long time hired. A lot of people. I'm sure fired a few along the way you seen people fit in not fit well in an organization. What is your advice on what a new college graduate should be looking at in a company aside from culture like you mentioned but is there anything else specific they should be looking for when they're when they're interviewing a different companies to make sure that it was going to be a good fit for them

Speaker 1: one other teeth and there's about three or four. Questions that I enjoy terms have students asked in the interview. What is what am I going to be doing? You don't want to end the interview and have no idea what sort of assignment you might be taken on for 4 months or for your career start. So what would I be doing? Maybe you can you give me in in that same Bean. Can you can you give me some examples of typical assignments for new Engineers or co-ops ER entrance and in your organization? So that's one category. Another one is what sort of tools do. I need to be good at to be good and productive at your company. That might be can you know, I might be some sort of software program to excel Excel. I think the big the third one is the culture. And as something about that, I think in an interview to the fourth thing that you were kind of want to do is to demonstrate the fact that you're interested by your research. So not just do the research but ask a good question. It's not like a where's your company and what are the products you put out. Now those are bad ones even be on their website and they're going to assume you're going to look at their websites, you know, call the company up stop by and get some literature. I'll talk to somebody and asking a stupid question that kind of shows off the fact that you've researched the call me thoroughly and you know life in and that's the key thing if you can answer the question, why do you want to work at this company doing this work? Unless you can give a good answer to that was passionate. That's another thing if you feel it, let it show I know we had one car company that would typically have the student aid interview on campus kind of screen in a little bit invite him out to the company walk them around but the key thing was they would look at them during this walk around showing them. The products are working on currently put them in a conference room with Executives and asking a question that was looking at their phone and wasn't engaging didn't get an offer but the suit that had their hand up all the time digging and whoever wants to know was walking around on those. Shop visit and he was digging in scrap bins or wanted to say can I have this? Can I take this home? Well, you started his career their bottom line and in a very unique positive way. I was a dual degree you was going to be an apprentice at skilled Tradesman and he had a bachelor's in engineering a very good student assume he's doing well there I look to find out

Speaker 3: what time is working with a lot of students that are Hands-On like that or you know, what what are your current thoughts on skilled trades verse a bachelor's degree in engineering. I got it. I mean it's not something we brought out a lot in the show, but it continues to be I think a relevant question for people because I know if a lot of people like Hands-On I don't like I don't people get pushed into engineering. Yeah. I'm just curious as to your current thoughts on on that if it makes sense.

Speaker 1: Would be the if you really like things a lot and also like daytime in you don't work in skilled trades without handling a bunch of data and computers and people you still have to get along with people but maybe spend a little more time on things and then a fair amount of time of day than a little less on people and you still could be broke. I think it's a great career path. It's not one I chose or want to go for a good reason personality and in skill set. But I think if you if you have the ability to handle calculus and and do it be an engineer go for it. I know I was at a high school one time. Where is the career advisor was basically saying if you got an answer and agreed be serving french fries at McDonald's and I was followed up with that and I was ready to stand up in the audience and say you crazy, you know, if you have that skill set go for it. If you have the skill set of a skill Trace person go for that. I think either one's fine. Both needed both good Futures

Speaker 2: that's really good advice in the end. And if anyone that you had something we haven't talked about but the important past 40 play consider your if your pre-college or something. Yeah, definitely consider that too. I want I want to get your advice real quick here though on someone who is who is baby has a few years experience or maybe a little more than a few but is looking to kind of make a career change or at least thinking about you know, they're made. Happy in their current position or with their current company or something. Is there anything specific that someone early to mid? Career should be thinking about making a job change that someone just ran out of college doesn't have to worry about it. Think about

Speaker 1: networking. I mean in all cases that would apply to anybody but I think especially when you been out of college for a number of years, maybe a decade or two don't just work, you know, stay within your profession, you know, join up organization that is in your degree French and American Society of mechanical engineers, and then be active in that or project management association are you know, what is a Torah and keep that in that we're going I mean like my job at U of M really happened because of gentleman from Grand Valley who we work together and we respect each other a lot a recommended me.

Speaker 2: What did I miss

Speaker 1: it right now? I wish I hope that I can get back to it. I think they do too but due to the virus and their budget that's just not happening this fall and I don't really want to sit in front of a lot of people face-to-face and I do it virtually but anyway that happened because I'm not working. So I think that's really key. And there's a lot of tools to do that. I mean LinkedIn is is good look for an association that and find people at companies that you might want to work at. There's also other tools that help you if you're let's say you wanted these think you want to work in this other industry, but you're not sure what companies will you can get online and find out what other companies there are in those Industries and there's tools to see which ones are hiring. So there's a lot of online tools and I've dealt with a couple of them. That people can can dig into an and help kind of broaden your Horizon and broaden their Networks. People hire people so you really need to stay in touch with other people even though right now you got a good job, or maybe it's a job you've had for 10 years and you want to try something different for a good reason maybe that running two rivers a little less than it used to be her that you wanted to be in touch with people.

Speaker 3: So Marissa and a previous episode of similar thing was cited women Engineers how that's really just enabled her to have a bunch of access to a bunch of companies a lot of experience. Is she having also invited that as well cuz I think it's so true that it's not me networking continues to be incredibly important and I don't say go away cuz you know, it's not you say that maybe try to emphasize my point. I was bleeding on earlier with this idea thinking about it from the company, you know, if you're a manager and you're trying to hire someone and you have someone you trust coming to you saying, hey, here's a person she's amazing. I know she'll fit. Well. I know she has a technical ability like in you have that and you have ten thousand resumes that got that you got from indeed like it's Imagine being that person sitting in that chair. It's obvious you get the network can be leveraged really really strong cuz if you put yourself in the position of the hiring manager, it's all right. Yeah. I just got to work at it and it's and everybody can be a fun effort, you know, if you're not big into the people thing it maybe maybe it's a little bit more work than it is for toddler just likes to go golfing with everyone. So if you'll regret it will be easier to seem like more work but it's still important I guess is what I'm trying to say

Speaker 1: is I mean I'm down there but that one person was a personal recommendation will be looked at that resume and probably will get an interview.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely saw Brian seen here off, you know the few year in engineer. I'm curious as to your you know, you're being a manager of of those types of engineers what your recommendations are for them and we talked a little bit about if you're three to five years in maybe you want to think what changing it up. Is there other things that relatively new engineer should be thinking about in terms of their Career Development

Speaker 1: degree just be taking a course or getting a certificate or attending a seminar in areas of Interest, especially if they apply to the organization that you're part of also kind of exploring what else is going on, you know keep your eyes open laterally. I know it at Steelcase. I had a bunch of different jobs in those 17 years and couple times. It's just like all you're doing that I'd like to do that and sometimes that person who started in that left for something else and I was number to drink that took me to Europe three times. I'm You know, I was a consultant for new product development on basically anything that was going on with steel case. So that was a lot of fun lot of wonderful experiences and then all started because I just kind of kept my eyes open and I was part of a project team that went through a process of this design for competitiveness and I raise my hands that I'd like to do this and eventually I was leaving at 10. That was a lot of fun. So I think keep your eyes open. Just one. Yeah,

Speaker 3: there's a year-and-a-half you're in this absorbing mode. And then you start to Crest on that gravel that you described. You know, it's okay why I'm in the meeting now and I'm saying things I feel confident, you know, I'm to three years and I'm definitely I don't know. I don't know a lot but I know something's really well and feeling really stable and I can't imagine being in that spot and be like, okay. Well, I probably should we think about some other things too. And your point is excellent like Feeling stable and comfortable like use that stability to look around stick your head back up out of the sand a little bit now, you know night just to see what the next move might be in a can of the companies that move up its continuing to move you in the direction you want to go in cuz if your heads out up looking and you're not building a network or what you need to be doing, you might miss it and not have known. Yes. I think the point is well-taken. I guess that's just my lost along elaboration of what you just said

Speaker 1: was a capable buddy an engineer, you know, developing engineer and good at this and then also interested in maybe what they could influence in and help you obtain not just as a guy a fun guy to go golfing with but have them get to know your people bility technically professionally and Personably and see how that fits was in their interest. That isn't a natural thing.

Speaker 3: Totally

Speaker 1: put your head down keep the job going but that doesn't always help you in the next job, you know, you need to help people understand who you are and what you can do for them

Speaker 3: and easy way to lead to a 25-year career of one they known is there a light day. Maybe you liked it for the first 3 or 5 or 10, but then I got a little dry and you just never ever moved on so yeah, I bet straight.

Speaker 1: What are the thought I have is you know, even if you find a job you love not every day is going to be wonderful handling system for IBM. I basically blad swatted got some arrows in the back and at times it was it was painful, but it was successful in the end. It was a wonderful experience. I mean I learned so much and some of that was stupid and suffering. Call keep looking for the job you like but don't expect Nirvana. It's it's going to have some

Speaker 3: nothing. Of time. Yeah, I think that I should say it explicitly episode. But yeah, there's definitely Elementary jobs that stock and it's a definite. Of time were talking to be great. Really. I think what we're trying to do with this podcast is help people get so that in aggregate. If you look at your career point of years like you and hoping most of that and really enjoying what you do cuz if you're not going to like there's going to be a team that you're going to work on that that one person really grinds your gears and just really annoying and that is I guess just part of it but you know that that doesn't mean you just stick your head farther in the sand. You got to keep it up. You got to keep not working so that you can still be opened opportunities in and be controlling your destiny

Speaker 1: ELO flexible cuz I think of some of the job changes I had and then basically other than the 11 years in the career center Grand Valley. I pretty much changed up every 3 or 4 years, but sometimes it wasn't me and Maya. It was corporate reorganization reduction in Workforce and other time or one time. The one company was bought by somebody else. I didn't like the somebody else in the way. They managed and the vice president that left said they want to come work with me. I'm kind of going sure if I like you I like what you're doing. So you're not always in control of the environment to so be a little flexible and adaptable. And what is the cheap kind of driving towards your interest? You know, what what you want to do and what you know, you're good at and lots of times at those two kind of come together.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's great advice. I think you've shared a lot of great advice that's here on the show as we're coming up on time though. I want to give you one last one last opportunity. Is there any any other advice or any other words of wisdom you want to share with someone either in college or early in their career to do the get us some encouragement or that that one sip they might need to help them move to where they

Speaker 1: want to be. What I think overall just enjoy College. It's a good time of life. I mean right now it's kind of tough with the virus going on in our world becoming virtual or being virtual vs. Physical model that's part of adaptation to and I believe College still could be fun in a little different way. But anyway college is a good time of life. Enjoy as much as you can have some fun along the way to I've always taken every every day of vacation. I've never given a day vacation up. I work hard. I've always worked hard, but I've also played and you don't enjoy life

Speaker 3: remember being a senior and everyone's like all I'm so excited. I'm so excited to get to work done with school and I just kept sitting there being like No, we work a lot. And I know it's Sunday at 8 p.m. And we're working hard right now, but I'm pretty sure it's going to stink a lot when we get on the other side to like I know the money will be nice but waking up at 8 every day for 7 to be at work at 8. I think that's going to get a lot of know. Yeah, I think that's awesome. Cuz I think it's it's easy to be especially grinding through senior design your senior year excited to be done with school and in the industry, but school is pretty cool too if it has Stephen some advantages

Speaker 1: and then try to be a blessing to others. My favorite teacher of all time was Professor George Curry agent U of M Dearborn. I was the only student went to the funeral spoke their son that I'm still in touch with says that he like me better. That's not true. But I love them and in he has so many Pearls of Wisdom and and one of them was just teach the Sun. Right now he was a teacher but teach life and I think you kind of translate that be significant and other people's life and I am just so thankful for any opportunity that I might have had to help others along the way that truly warms my heart and I don't take credit for that. I just feel the last

Speaker 2: that's like, that's awesome.

Speaker 3: I think I didn't get into their Town. That's fantastic me. I really really appreciate your time coming on the show at night. Yeah, everything I everything I could hope to be in terms of great advice for people listening. I know you got a wealth of knowledge and wealth of experience and I'm so glad that you're in the position you were in a meeting invite to retire down and join that I'm glad they're able to go golfing but I'm also happy that you were able to help out all the students you did cuz I know that your experience, you know, you're giving back and that's great. And I think that's a USB device. I just getting back to you. I think that's also really important it, you know, if you're successful to give to get back on the help others. I think I think I think there's a lot of people that look back on their life and their it really really proud about the time. Other people and not necessarily though the work think they got done or whatever, but then that person comes out to Destin to hey, can you help me with this new go I'm driving. But you often look back on that helping that other person is as the bigger achievement of the day then off the next box on the Excel to do list some super important, but we're not we're getting industry

Speaker 1: for I've completed 54 of them and I'm working on the next four in March.

Speaker 3: Are you go never never stop learning. Have a great day.

Speaker 2: Tom is the most experienced person. I think we had on the show so far and it definitely shines through and all the advice is given like tons of good advice from perspectives inside and outside of like working at a company supervisor

Speaker 3: is a to careers. Both are very related to the goal of this podcast. So grateful to have on I think he's able to bring out a lot of a really really good element for people which was which is awesome for me his interview questions thinking about that way, you know if they will have any questions, but what one should I have on you know is I think there's something like, you know, what would I do in this role? What are some example projects? How would you describe the company culture and then like a research-based question that was obvious that you had done a bunch of research on the company more than just looking at the web page. I got in those are some great examples of interview questions that rattle are good questions, but also help you to realize it okay to ask. What is the typical day look like what the what is the culture like, those are good questions to ask cuz you want to know that before you start. I think if you know you got that whole the whole idea if I think of in the company's protector we talked about like if you're hiring manager and you hear someone asks what types of questions you're going to know that they are getting good information. If you give him an offering accepted need to ask you a question. They already know what they know what they're getting into it. And I think this is great questions and I'm like, I don't really know why I thought that like whether it's because you don't even want to ask a dumb question, but you don't know what those are but thank ask. What what am I going to do everyday ask about the culture important you can do it at that. Everything has been taken away from

Speaker 2: me. I shouldn't ask what the role of supposed to know, but I got a new phone screens. We're like, the recruiter has just read the job description back to me. Like I didn't even read it all when I applied and so like that's just a starting point obviously like they almost everything in their ask more stupid questions going to show You're interested. You really want to make sure that you're you're making sure the job is right fit for you. So definitely keep asking those. I think we talked about it a lot here and mainly because of the co-op program a kind of oversaw their but experiencing what you think you want to do as soon as possible to me is super important. Like we said, it's going to help you figure out what you like and what you don't like and if you're in college like do a co-op doing internship do something but I think you're also in the early stages of your career. I don't think you have to be in your current role for forever 2 or 3 years. And if you're like, I want to try something else maybe like go and do it make make different moves. Even if it's not for more money or for a promotion. If it's the new company moving, you know, the same level go ahead and do that and then do it again. Maybe three years like to really find out what you want to do because before you settle on something for 25-30 years, whatever you should at least experience with out there so you can be be happy and not look back at 25. Didn't like how you're doing

Speaker 3: and south of like things that I think I can't do these things right? I shouldn't do these things. But that's why we're trying to bring people to talk about if you can and if that's okay and yeah, I don't know, you know if you can and there's different options to do that. So so what's stopping you I guess

Speaker 2: you're not stuck. You only think you're stuck.

Speaker 3: There we go until next time I go to see buddy

Speaker 2: indeed have a good one. Thanks for listening this episode of engineer your career with Troy Bauman and Brennan Tamarac for more information about the show visit our website at byc podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with Troy and I if you or someone, you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey. I would like to be on the show go on the website. Too Short bio and we made it to invite you to come on and share your story. And finally if you want to show your support, please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice. Too Short bio and we made it to invite you to come on and share your story. And finally if you want to show your support, please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice.