Speaker 3: And we’re back to the last episode of 20/20 crazy how fast and slow ahead of zero is gone, but glad to bring another season guest to the show and Bill Alcini don't see any of the mechanical and materials engineer who's working the automotive Small Engine Refrigeration exhaust sound exhaust emissions load-bearing and Aviation Industries. He has a BS in mechanical engineering focusing and Dynamics, but he has a master's and PhD in the Material Science and Engineering Kelly works for GE Aviation in the chief engineering track of the joining heat treatment group specializes in inertial welding. He has worked at General Motors research Chrysler Tecumseh Products, Federal-Mogul and NTN if I was technical papers and mini Pattinson Trade Secrets AWS awarded in the annual gold medal for the paper that you are the most of the field of welding is Batman in his life has been instrumental in teaching him about life Bill. Welcome to UIC Welcome everyone to another episode of engineer your career on Brennan Tim. Not a big person in my life. Not a person that I am glad to be able to bring into the show. I think that's been one of the cool things about the show for me is looking back at my network and being a cooler some of those really awesome influential people that I would love to have other people meet and I have another example that in addition to Tom from the previous episode. We have our bill. I'll see me on the on the show today and I'm I'm I'm glad that you're here until they start building might as well. Just kick you off if you if you wouldn't mind just kind of starting us walking through how you got to where you got it today.

Speaker 1: Thank you for a for having me here and let me share my lesson learned and learnt wisdom regarding the career choices. I made maybe I'll believe career affects our happiness and well-being to make your choices my recipe with something like just do something you enjoy as much money as I could I desire the same attention and importance but I thought I could do anything just a matter of learning. I could be skillful and anything I put my mind at work hard ingredients and get it after working and living for years. I've learned there's some other facets and then puts her happiness as well. I know now that I need a meaningful purpose or Mission apart from work to survive or accumulate wealth or status. I need to know one identify my talents my strength and my weaknesses and then accept this week which leads to learning that I'm depending on others in a relationship for truth guidance and Direction. So I like to share the stories through my career that Tommy these lessons and I would consider these defining experience has led me to the conclusion examples that when I was in grade school, I wanted to build a sled my parents would let me use power tools. So I designed this the sled all out of wood. She heard everything and in order to build this thing I couldn't use power tools. So I took drill motor drill, shut up the bits and just spun Thing by hand completely built this thing. My hands were blistered and everything, but I did it. And I'm surrounded by people that really love me my my father and mother were great. I grew up on the street one street was Bush kids are all about the same age. We played Sports all year together. We gathered each other up then and we had a blast. I had this the perfect childhood and those people like my father really cared about me and my mother going to care about me and direct me in high school. I took auto shop which shop Electronics any any any vocational. I think I could wear my belt was when I got to be 16. I got my first car for $200 was the rust-bucket fix that thing. I sold it for 600 burncoat. I like a like a wild banshee. Perfectly happy doing the texting thing. I really didn't want to go to school. I didn't want to go to college again. I thought I was going to go my lights above me and my dad. My dad basically tricked me and he said so listen to that end with my interest in the technical. I didn't see any need for the language and writing skills with duct for my child writing classes and choosing a college time. My father work for Jim. I love cars GM had a great reputation. So I applied to GMI Kettering sci-fi SAT scores for Solo in writing in English. Because I love the outdoors the technical Excellence the fact that it was high society is very practical and it was a it was a Gearhead school not really feel to me.

Speaker 3: You would have thought about what I think it's a challenge for a lot of engineers in very nice cool. I mean, they they have a hand on some of them. What do I do with this do I do I do I go to school and I and I think that's a legitimate challenged and make that decision decision not to and so I don't really know but I guess looking back on you with what the primary driver was was just your your father, I guess with that that decision to not do vocational school. Was it largely just your father's and put in your other people around you?

Speaker 1: Skills or can do it but the piece of paper wasn't there. So

Speaker 3: would you and you know a similar young person in front of you today. Would you give similar device

Speaker 1: beside really take a look at these different light layers and levels that piece of paper lets you get to you know, if you think you're going to design something and you're going to have the big say so and you're not going to if you don't have to drink if you're happy. Now the engineer hands you a sketch and says, you know draw this happy with that great, but I don't At that time, you know, I saw the guy that builds the car, you know them can I could build a car if you wanted to really understanding what it took and it wasn't really College yourself show me all the different things that went into it on. So I haven't gone to school that just gave me a much better inside of what it takes to do some of the things I really want to do.

Speaker 3: I think there is all that formal process on design validation. I mean, I used to see if for sure and like civil engineering right if you're going to certify a bridge or something like that you have a have to have a master's degree, but that same analogy you can apply I see it in pretty much all other industries of of accepting design, you know it if someone's going to certify a designer and not even formally you do not even like that the PE sense but even just like a design engineer. Yeah, it makes sense that the people want to see a degree there whether or not your point before they have the technical skill like I mean, there could be people that have the technical I don't have a degree, but unfortunately, it's how the world Works in. So I guess we're just trying that kind of explain that for the listeners is to tell the world we live in works. And so if you if you're going to be the person wanting to be in charge of designs and stuff like that, it can be important.

Speaker 1: But I think I've seen it in my life have I seen the progression that I think was always there which was in every field. If you can design it without doing the calculations you will if you have the luxury of over designing it or you have the luxury of not really being scrutinized but that's not our world today that everything is designed right to the Ragged Edge in terms of every ounce of material lower-cost. Whatever that the tall bridge into a duck. That's the products that are competitive and you need to know the basics you would be able to do those analysis. You need to know the basics of the schooling the theory the physics, you know, whatever so it's pretty much it's gotten harder to try and do that. Bio, well, you know and you're

Speaker 3: going to Michigan Tech. What what's how did that go? What what's the next step in in the journey for a bail

Speaker 1: bonds class, but he was a dynamic specials and I really loved him. He was very kind is really impressed by his humility. He had narcolepsy when he was known for falling asleep in class. Because she didn't want to not because you didn't try but he used to tell stories about how his team used to go out. How do you know models on windmills that were 300 ft High, you know and different stuff like that and that just really got my interest coming by today. Had to go off into that that area

Speaker 3: it's so amazing. So hilariously Brandon and I both had shapton for vibrations after he retired and he would like to come back and teach a random class on random semesters and Brian and I were lucky enough to have a similar experience where you have heard that same story for providing cool story to make it entertaining. You know, it's not it's not he he taught me how a differential equations model vibration. That's okay. You know, that's that's not how it's remembered. It's remember it as these great stories. I think that's I think that's awesome. I'm so glad to hear you cuz I work all the same way when people like what what's so great about shackles class as if it's so awesome stories. So I guess I just I think that's that's all I dreamed it really great Educators, but they make it fun

Speaker 1: whether that stories are the find themselves. You can't fake it right? You can't assign him to be an educator and if you're not interested in it, you just try to make it fun for the students. It's contagious if

Speaker 3: you're liking it sorry to interrupt but I just

Speaker 1: looked at the call and she was in college for a couple years and both were we had this long distance relationship for about a year, but she was really struggling so I jump through hoops and got a special special permission to finish tack down at U of M do my last you. Um, Which just to me that's that's my priority relationships in a marriage location is a higher priority than my career. But again it was all right from there. It was already directing things finished up high school and got a job with Chrysler in the sound of a bration department and one of the first things I was there and I had to try and measure the torque on the engine mounts and ask for the guys that was pretty sharp in a wheelchair. And you know, so anyway does the director Department had heard about this, you know, he pulled me aside and he said people are going to say what you doing in going to work and stupid, but he should just remember this. It's that one out of 10 times at peace right baby shower surround. And that always stuck with me which you know lessons earned was don't worry about the criticism just do the right the next right thing. So I was really enjoying it and they were planning on moving into their they had a little Advanced research group in the department, but I was constantly pushing me a feeling that I want to learn more better. If I knew more I'd be more value than or secure my job. And I love the Innovative spiced up. I loved Innovative designs and they're always heavily depend on material. So I thought if I know by noon materials better, I could come up with better than Bell. So I went ahead and start a master's degree at night. And while I was doing that U of M offered me a teaching assistantship in about this time. I finish school and she was working full-time since I went school time do the Masters about the time. I was finishing a gym research when I was finishing looking for a job the GM research lab offering me a job. We were in Ann Arbor and the research lab jobs in Warren, which is closer to where I grew up and we had no ties at that point in the Inner Harbor area was a great job. Going to do that. Well, I had no plans Past Masters. And again, this is the guy who's taking the screaming Bell school. Just let me get on with designing thing. But I had a brother who told me God wanted me to continue and get up PC. I did not want you and so I kind of threw this ridiculous kind of test of God, which is ridiculous test. First of all I said, well, I'm just going to take the The Graduate entrance exam without studying and most people take off a year of school at that time. Anyways, most people took off a year and they just starting capacitor sing. So I went ahead and took it and I passed it. And just to show you that it's not normal for me. I went and started talking to one of the professors, you know, figured while talk to him about thesis project. So I went up and talked to him and in the start talking to him as usual he gets so frustrated with me and he said So then the other obstacle was we start having family. We're going to have our first child and I couldn't see spending the time and money time away from them because you don't go to school and full-time work. I didn't want my wife to be working. We decide we want to raise our children. So I said, well, I really like I can't I just can't see doing this.

Speaker 3: Would your Masters are research-based Masters or was it coursework only or mix it research

Speaker 1: and coursework. It was

Speaker 3: okay. So you had exposure to the full research side and you I mean you knew what wife would would have been kind of like as a PhD student

Speaker 1: really taken away from anything important and I was doing that it would have been because my wife wouldn't be working it be working full time and going to school. What's another word for not want to do that? It was an hour drive from Ann Arbor into Warren that point so I went ahead and said I'm just going to accept this I found out while I was working the research lab pretty much any of the primary positions ever had a few. I knew that I pretty much had to get that degree if I want to stay there. So I found a job in Ypsilanti at hydromatic GM hydra-matic, which is a new transmission plant and was going to leave and the research Labs told me no. No, we don't want you to go. So I came up with a proposition for working full-time to do my thesis. So they went for that and I went ahead and I didn't did that. It was in welding when that work was done wrote a paper from that work and paper won. The highest award did the American Welding Society gives every year for the greatest contribution to the welding industry. So I did some more time at gym Duncan's pay back my education and took a job closer to home, which was Ann Arbor that time the better care for my family again. The priority there is the goal of marriage and location is a family man and doing God's work. We were involved in a community Christian at the time there too. So I ended up at a place called Tecumseh Products. They did Refrigeration compressors and small engines and that was doing material evaluations quality control failure analysis in aperol the company plants in the development department and I struggle to crank out now, this is Where the crank out these reports do these analysis and try and do different things. I'm supposed to get some R&B stuff in there too, but it was really difficult to find time. So because it's my passion and I did Squeeze some working and he's proved to be very promising. So the manager management wanted me to focus more. I need a my car had a hard time doing enjoy it. So we kind of tag team didn't split it up. He did more the evaluations and I did more the research that worked out really well after probably 5 Maybe six years. They are the research lab right across the street. They had an opening for a biology section in so I thought wow that sounds glamorous an opportunity to climb. The ladder is managing the Metallurgy lab I had to report on one that I heard again. We did the valuations failure analysis. I'll probably company's plants valuations for the customers development projects customers failures or test runs, whatever responsibilities to run the lap

Speaker 3: tell us about that a little bit about what it was like going from a research heavy part of it and he's R&D areas where your pie technically solely technically focused to now adding in some of that man is that people management administrative stuff because I think that can be a little bit of a change special you're trying to to keep doing some of the technical stuff. But now you have it your people people Management on the side. What was that like as you were first getting you know, bro? Do it a little bit there.

Speaker 1: It seems like I was doing a lot more Hands-On stuff and a lot less thinking a lot of the analysis for more wrote, you know, like for example, we would do crankshaft surface analysis for Ford GM Chrysler and you just you know, do you know which way is the flap a metal that the when a Polish which way is it running? What's the surface finish in on you? Pretty much had templates and you had a nice kind of crank all this stuff out. There's a lot in that. Again, I am I'm not a big fan of that, you know, but I got to admit probably 80% of all the jobs I've ever had and then that

Speaker 3: ties to those listening is that there's a lot of jobs that can be more template style jobs. Will you're really not thinking of unsolved problems all day. I can't you know, you can go a more technical route getting into it. Can I want you you said you really enjoy where you're thinking you said it is thinking it when I'm trying to elaborate that I'm for people that are listening is thinking of problems that aren't really saw that mean you can be thinking of okay. Well, how am I going to run these 10 test today? But if each test is predefined and it's got everything all can figure it out and you really just hitting start making sure everything's technically okay and hitting start. It's a different type of engineering job. Then you're sitting down in front of a blank piece of paper with a question at the with a problem at the top and you're trying to figure out how to solve the problem where the answer to the color of a Lab. I think that's what bill is talking about in terms of what what he was doing last up. He wasn't doing more of that unknown problem solving and I think that's a different people that like either one. So people like a mix it just it sounds like Bill you knew that. How did you how did you how did you know you like to solve the problem

Speaker 1: through its the failures what you like and you don't like so so sure I'd set myself up with not good writing skills. So I hung in there though, and I had to crank out like 30 reports a month so that out but I did enjoy the paper again, enjoy the administrative work the guys that I heard were better than I was at doing the routine work. Report so I told that to the management and this really threaten my own sense of security do this but you know following my own values that report finally ended up taking my job and but we have a wonderful relationship and it was a really really good thing for trying also the time I struggled not to work overtime is tons of pressure trying to trying to get all this stuff done right but I wouldn't and that didn't help my job performance any but you know the value of my family and doing God's work was more for you. That I started finding out what's going on. And I was not comfortable with that. So I ended up ended up leaving it at that point. I was pretty beat down and after that experience. I lost a lot of confidence or had to do some real soul-searching to understand how to choose the next job so that be6i song happy and I took a good hard look at those experiences and just kept saying, you know, I kind of started to see that thread running through, you know, I was better at doing the research type stuff. I enjoy doing the research type stuff. So, you know I said, okay. Well, maybe that's the thing focusing. So I specifically looking for something. So what are bearings backyard literally NTN bearing company and this was just a wonderful experience. So this was a little bit more so it were talking about it's more of They have this problem. Is there a new product we could come up with? And that's really point or the other ones. I love are you know this thing blew up why you know and get to the root of it. And then usually that means how we going to fix it. But the flip side of that has a lot of people that don't like it is There's a lot of pressure because you're somebody says in and I'll I'll go on and some other jobs how that plays out in the research type girl, you know with that freedom comes somebody's expecting it to work. If you've been in that business at all, you know that it's almost almost never works the first time and if you and the budget type people and the management type people don't usually plan that way if you said was going to take three iterations know so I can take you and then you say, you know, most of us have been around this block say, okay, just just do it answers of the second time is it But that's that's just the way it is.

Speaker 3: There's the scientist in the engineer, you know, there's a scientist who makes everything perfect as the engineer who who doesn't make everything perfect but makes a good enough in the research engineer is someone is pushing it closer to the scientist someone who's who's really I don't going more in there, but you never know how long some of those Endeavors are going to take, you know, the unknown problem. I want you can take you don't know if that's all it's like if it was if you want to know how long it take to build the wheel I can tell you cuz it we have it. It's we already know it but if you want me to tell you how long it's going to take to build something we've never built before you can give a good guess. It's an educated guess but you can never know and I think that that's it. That's an interesting part of the research engineer position. That's hard is that you're you're in a weird face, especially if you're tied to budget your in a weird, you're the weird space that you have to get comfortable with because it's always going to be there and I think that you're I'm just trying to Pleasure Point their bill that if your if you think you're going to enjoy the research a new space, you're going to have to enjoy this spot where people are constantly kind of trying to push you because it's always going to take longer than people wanted to but if you really want to do it at that said she's kind of what goes where the person I was listening episode 17 Adam who if you listen to episode you could tell he really didn't want to be a research person ever eaten since he got to hear and as far away from research she got put in I think at GM in the research group and he's like, I was listening that are wondering, you know, what does it look like to not have the research as you're mine said I'd encourage you to listen to that episode as a as a difference, but it sounds like you continue to do that and you continue to the build-up, you know, you're thick skin if you know, what's it's hard and having a family but sounds like you're bad as being a really in your previous job really taught you that no, like these are my values. I'm not going to work overtime. Sorry if the building's on fire. I got to go home at sits. Okay, I'll come back tomorrow. It's not going to be on fire. Or even if it still is on fire, I'll just get us a fire extinguisher out tomorrow at 8 a.m. But it's 5 in Des it's hard. It is very very hard to do that. Especially when you're young engineer and you think that someone sure what you mean thing that you have is your time your your time to give and if you're not given that then what are you giving and that it's a hard place to be as a unions near the hard start to think through but it's good. It's a healthy exercise to go through and it sounds like you started to do that. But once you get into this new role and you just talk about how you know, you're starting to get some is pushing. It is hard to be returned your but you already know and like these are my values and this isn't what I want to do until I think that's that's awesome. So how long were you at that that doing that for I forgot the name of the bearing

Speaker 1: NTN which I really liked was they would sit down and say okay. We think we got a shot at this. There's a problem. Here's a potential product. We think we can come up with we think the first steps are doing this test in this testing this test. So the deliverables are this test will be run and will give you a report on the results. Which was a wonderfully reasonable waited to hunt. They didn't over-promise there was never achievable goals and then we could we could say Yep. Looks like we got a good shot. What's the next step in the end of that? Wonderful 5-6 years ended up getting into already had that down. So I was looking for something again, and I applied for professorship at GMI or Kettering. And I figured while it's research and development, right? So get along with teaching and I like doing both really cuz I was a TA in college so they ended up offering me a job. So the same school that would accept me as a student was not willing to let me cheat. I ended up turning that down and there's another hour drive from Ann Arbor to Flint back. I need help finding a job in the advanced Development Group of an engine emission company called tackle initially. It was it was an R&D job aren't the effort. They basically hired me and said we want electronic exhaust valve. one guy How is one of the ones where it was terribly under under resource, but again, I joke with everybody but Bill ain't going to be here. What time do I kill myself trying, you know, I would give him everything I had for that 40 hours. But so it was it was crazy taking that pressure and it was difficult times to hold the personal standards. But the people were good appreciated the effort and it was difficult to see that project fail for lack of resources. I was fearful of times under the pressure Miss goals and and no expectation years later the company did apply significantly more resources to a problem and people to see them and I was blessed to be able to offer guidance to the group that was working and take from the wreck that I done years before but listen there was don't be a victim of companies unrealistic goals. Don't sacrifice your life for the unrealistic goal.

Speaker 3: Your director that says hey, you know, what is I need this data by tomorrow morning and you going I can't do that. If you know, it's saying things in meetings, that's uncomfortable is unfortunately what that looks like. It's really hard to do Bill really hard to do it really it feels like you're sitting there saying hey Tina me to let you down. Let me down again. Hey ya just me letting you down and it sucks. It really does suck mean. I mean I've been in those meetings are you you know, you have to raise your hand and say the thing you don't want to say, but from what my experience and I'm curious as to your thoughts and if I bring it up, you know, like for my expense it was the better long-term route like almost like a little bit of a short or detriment but people still respected me and they knew that when I told him something that I would tell them the bad news if I needed to tell them the bad news and having people around you that do that is valuable.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I think couple helpful things don't set yourself up for that when they're sitting there saying the one I used to love was Elvis when you can have that done. I know I don't have a clue when I can have that done. I don't know what I don't know how this is going to turn out. Nobody knows how this is going to turn out. Well, so I can't tell you I'm going to have it. And if not, it's okay. Just give me just give me a gas right when you find that gases in paper as a promise.

Speaker 2: Long as you didn't

Speaker 1: say it, you know when you really can't commit don't you know, if you know, you can't deliver don't do it upfront and when they're asking you put together things and give estimates and they push back and they still make it shorter make it shorter. Don't don't set yourself up from the beginning to fail. If you know, you can't do it say it right up front

Speaker 3: that can be a hard thing starts too early in your career to really get used to a specialist here is your new and a job even like a year in or so and Steve are asking you of things and if you don't know or they're sending timelines like it. I was going to come back but like you said like as soon as it's written down somewhere and meeting notes or an email or something. It's going to be okay. We'll revisit it on that date and if it's not done, you know their you're going to get called out for that so I didn't get its already 4 starting to be like, I don't know but I'll give an estimate and that'll be what it'll be. Hopefully it's good. But, like you said it's it's almost like you say, you know. Don't know just you can't give an answer. You can't give it to you can give an honest answer that you could be expected to to deliver on and socially important to stand to stand your ground early and be known as someone who's willing to do that to stand up for the time and energy. You're going to have to put into it and be honest about it with people even if it even doesn't make you look good in the moment early on that can honestly enough that courage do that will come back to help you later on.

Speaker 1: The only thing you can really hurt yourself. There is is copping a bandana to if you sincerely understand they need to do time. They need to do budgets. They need to do planning to resent that or to get mad at him about the best shoot yourself in the foot. So my best guess at this is this and I would say that his best guess but I cannot promise any of this and I do not know how the tests are going to turn out. This could all get turned up on his head, you know, after we get the results and they did respect that if you really trying your best what it what else are they going to do? Where are they going to go if they got some silver bullet in their back pocket that they can sell for $0.10. They don't need you and they wouldn't they would be doing this whole effort. So you do the best job you can and you hope there's nobody else out there. That's that's better, you know, and if if they are cuz that's what I'll end up happening. Anyway, you know, so it's like no don't play that game did get it you're honest and realize work for what they're trying to do. The best Utah job is getting them what they need because desert part of the team, you know

Speaker 3: again there I'm with you sounds you doing at every point you change your car with your grapes reflection of what I want to do next. How did the how did

Speaker 1: that work where I jumped around? Like I said, I was doing this for a while then they ended up putting me in from the cold and which is a coup sticks to pot end which was designed Catalyst in Canning, which is basically putting a can around a piece of ceramic and then all the flow characteristics and stuff around that and went went into all kinds of pain management type rolls. They try to put me management type roll and just said my core personality is I just like challenges so I didn't care thing if I was doing Acoustics cold in or if I was doing metal forming and hot end. It didn't matter to me as a challenge it respond that I would kill me if I was going to manage them. We had a great time. But I didn't play the reason the guys like to work with me is I didn't play the games of if they needed somebody to go in and say this ain't going to work. I would go in and say this ain't going to work and I was trying to just be honest on both sides to say. Yeah, we really need to do this if the guys were if it was our fault or if we were screwing it is the same time. I would if it came down with something that wasn't going to work at I would kick back and say we don't my psyche In all my job. I struggle with pride. I resent the fact that God made me an absent-minded Professor. I'm someone just can't remember every detail Plaza, especially roach routine things. You know that are just there for management or you know, you got to check the boxes or party protocol. I have an eye for the technical detail, but I'm farsighted when it comes to Manley formula for the chapter follow especially as my mind wanders and something like that as it gets boring. Example missing meetings. I can the line can go off 5 minutes before meeting in 5 minutes. People end up calling me and sending me texts and meetings just so that they remind me even though I got alarms and everything going on. So I'm continually in a battling this and I'm like woah. So I'm asking God. Why did you make me this way? You know and really the conclusion I can't do is just to understand that dependence on others and the fact that I need other people and even in your in my career, I found the every single designed that I've come up with or we've come up with is a team. It's never been all my Diaz. It's always been a conglomeration once a different people's ideas. So getting off, you know, that's an important part of my personality that keeps me humble and keeps me in a place where yeah, I need to understand those people attend over fantastic. My co-workers were my good friends. I bounced around like a scene in management roles, but I always gravitated to Innovation research and development. And I was ended up back there and I was I was I was happy doing that work. So at this point, I got hit by an emotional freight train the turn me inside out my children are grown in after 29 years of marriage. My wife divorced me. That was the hardest thing I've ever gone through my I was dealing with being ripped ripped apart spiritually and emotionally, but I also realize that a good part of my lack of joy and peace was from a lack of purpose in life that I taken for granted having a purpose outside of myself. So now I realized it was important that was a key ingredient for my life pizza joint and they also use this time to deal with a lifelong Nemesis, which is a sphere. So we've already talked about there's a million different places. You can experience from pressure and all that kind of stuff all the time because of job security lost a relationship gear failure lack of mental life. Charity, if you're providing for my family my mistakes and the absent-minded Professor. So for some strange reason God use this season to find the solution for that pain knife. I found the only way to deal with that affect you was being in a real personal relationship and that you showed me how I could trust him and he was bigger than all these fears. You cannot believe how different staff me in all those relationships at work. Just being more comfortable just just accepting the fact he's better than I am. Let him do it, you know or is ideas better? Just just being a servant and take that idea and make it happen. Made a world of difference in terms of how the performance was at work. So At that point, like I said, I need your purpose and God gave me one. So and that was also reason for another career change. My first grandchild on Ciara was born with a very serious birthday Jenny determine a Smile Care. So when my daughter's family finally finally settled in the area where the club where I thought they'd be for a while. I found a job down here and moved Tenneco didn't want me to leave. So this is before there was work at home. So they ended up letting me work 3 days of work up there up there and I would come down here for the weekend some money and Friday and then I will drive right back up to Grass Lake in and work for a few days and I work for home on Monday and Friday and that was looking back. I realize how God knew exactly what I was made him and he died in directing me to the right career via loving people in my line. You got any into he provided Advanced degree when I didn't want to get it cuz he knew I need that the green for those are ninja and my psyche disabilities helped me realize my dependence on others and God so life is great experience a tremendous amount of peace and joy all the most of the time and as far as wealth and material possessions. I've never lacked for anything and I live very comfortably and I feel like I'm the richest man on earth and love my work. So that's my

Speaker 3: amazing. How you took the time to realize that life doesn't revolve around the 40 hours we spend in the office or whatever every week that there's a bigger picture of all the things that we value in our lives where that's Faith or family or friends or any other number of things that would that we can choose to identify ourselves as and I think a lot of people don't necessarily take the time to realize what is most important to them and how that can blend into Take the crew decisions. They make of what they're doing of of where they're moving of how they're spending their time of whether they're choosing to you know, go home at 5 or stay till 8 p.m. Every night and that's that's important thing. I think everyone is too if they haven't done it's really think about is is what is what is the purpose of the job? I'm doing does that fit in with the other vision of how I see myself and what path do I want to be on as I did like go down and use the limited number of days I have in my life socially awesome to hear you. You you how you gone through that and really let that, you know kind of brain that that peace and joy to your life in a way that it provides

Speaker 1: meaning Show me people on because they couldn't control or didn't have the courage to try and challenge have lived with something that they're not really happy with this really meaningful

Speaker 3: exudes and companies like that. It's a exemplified by 10 bill would like what do you want to do? You want to come in a few days a week and we're going to head work from home to even when I think you'd be surprised once you're I don't want to challenge it like how accommodating others can be especially, you know, if it's your point billion people may be sitting there scared or worried. But if you if you have the confidence and you're able I think you're able to realize that there's a lot of other options and doors open unexpectedly and things don't work out in but you're also okay if they don't, you know, if you would have left intend to hit you that we we're not going to do that. You would have been fine to doing it. Like it's it's good to hear how you came to a place of acceptance with that. You know, I think for a lot of it, unfortunately, sometimes it's hard life events that forced us to rethink that but I mean, I think your example and bring them out hopefully has people listening. Hopefully they reflect on that as well too, and their life and and what it is they want their life to being what they want to look like and I think that's that's amazing and I didn't get it. It it brings it, you know a paper. I brought you down sound in Ohio and I guess we did we did we talk about GE though. I know how that all worked out. So you say you into so how did the transition to the new job go? I guess I did that all work out

Speaker 1: the medical industry in the aviation industry kind of together in that in that there's a lot of red tape as much as a lot of the other groups like I do truly right now. So I do make the tooling for a very specialized process called the nurse 11 and it's every 5 year olds. Go ahead and just love those are our latest machine. 16ft flywheels diameter piece of Steel that we got three or four of them onto a tool that supposed to hold a part. And it's got college and it's got its Chief digging into that part. Anyway, you can to try and handle the torque and then you take these two pieces that usually a nickel bass super alloy and and you are having a huge hydraulic cylinders capable like 5 million pounds coolest Crash and Burn thing. You ever saw the paper pushers don't have the closet in that as much. Can I get to to do again that the technical side of that but you can you can look at even the paper pushing aside from how in the world do we guarantee quality when we've only got three pieces to the test or we're going to try a new process and we only got three pieces to try and and then we're supposed to assess how that's going to be reliable so that you're going to jump in a plane and go fly in it. So it has even though the challenge of a really high-quality. You can see the technical side of that, you know statistics and You know, maybe more advanced than destructive techniques or destructive techniques, you know, whatever if you like a challenge and yeah, you can stomach the fact that somebody going to like that. It didn't didn't work. First time. It's a good place to be if you can't stomach that part of it, but you still like the innovation there's ways of a less risky Innovation. For example, if you're what I found if you're in a production plant and you are doing the day today. Not earth-shattering type changes wash and say that what's a notch changes that take tons of money, but a lot of the things I've come up with head just spend. Well, you know that that process I can think of a better way of doing that. So my favorite word is is bailing wire and duct tape. I'll get cardboard boxes. I'll get bailing where I get duct tape and I'll rig up something to try it and I'll do and we used to call and skunkworks. Because you just do it on the side and you can work out pretty much all the details before you you take it to management. And before you have to sign on the dotted line where somebody says, you know, I want this to work, you know, I want you to tell me how long it takes but at the end of that road, I want it to work. So there's less risky ways of doing it. It's just try and find that ninja try and find a place where you can do that and at the same time do the other 80% might be just doing the grind, you know, because you got to pay the bills and they need the work done, but you can find ways to

Speaker 3: squeeze it in. So kind of elaborate a little bit more than that in my eyes is always the same bigger companies. There's like these two tracks, you know, you start as an engineer one engineer to and then there's almost a decision point that hasn't happened for a lot of Engineers of am I going to go down to management track or am I going to go down a technical track and they all have similar pay level tiers, but with different teams, I manager one manager to senior engineer technical specialist chief engineer. There's like these different essentially passed that you could walk and I think it's a challenge as an engineer to know which path when you're at the decision point which which way you should go until someone think you talk funny episodes as far as been great and in terms of looking inside and understanding what you like and it sounds like when you did that here you really pointed towards the technical Jack even though I tried to put you in the management Rec Center. Going to go back over there and you do you jump back over and you can go back and forth back and forth, but I'm curious if you could end in the position you are now where you know, you're always up the technical track. I guess talk talk about what that I guess what that's like a GE specifically.

Speaker 1: well I guess it's always true the technical people. Tend to have have the answers but the administrative in the management executive type people make the decisions. so if you get high enough in the technical level though the technical Chiefs can always play the trump card of you can't do that because it'll hurt the product. So if you want the frustrations for a lot of technical people is I got this great idea, but I can't do it. They won't give me the money, you know, they won't they won't let me try it or whatever for whatever reason so that's where a lot of technical people say. Well, I'm going to go into that field so that I can make the decisions and I can straighten out, you know, all the wrongs and in this company and then when you do that you find well, you know, you got three pages of paperwork to fill out for a job over there any H&S stuff and you know, you fine you don't have the time to do the checking. So that's that's the trade-off that you have to find in a way. I can see just about every extreme. I'm sure you've seen that you seen the person that has zero social skills the genius but nobody can talk to and they're off in their little room and it was kind of spit stuff out of her. So I'll throw it over the wall and everyone else tries to make sense and and do something with it and there's a real Niche for people that Can really appreciate both sides because if you are a manager and you're trying to make good decisions, if you can understand the technical you're much better off and you can much you make much better decisions. So I see people that do kind of bowl. There's Chief Engineers want one thing that's interesting about GES. It seems like there's one guy the classic storytelling mythical Guru that sits up on the top of the mountain. There's like somebody here that's like that because it seems like they brought everything up the totem pole. Saw you guys got to make the final say on it. So I mean if you're if you're after a head trip, I mean that's got to be one. But at the same time it's like what I really want to be the guy that made the decision that you know, that crashed that we had the other day. I was the last word. I was the guy that stamp the drawing I was you know, last one. That's right. I can't I like people and I like to see people that's where I've seen a lot of texting people go into management this just because they do they are respectful people. They're very kind and and they care about people and they be respectable so they tend to be good managers and that's probably the basic ingredient for a manager. Took the time to go there sometime maybe because it pays better or you'll have to take that opportunity to better

Speaker 3: different track and Technical track. Like if you look at those diagrams, like I've seen him for a couple different companies. It's like okay Hugo manager one, and then there's like seven levels above that and you look at the technical Jackie like okay there senior engineer, then there's technical specialist and that's it. There's like this last wrongs on the ladder of the technical track, then the management track and people worry about potentially limitation of that. If I go to the technical route, am I going to be limited on Career growth? Whether it's financially or even just in terms of stay in power or whatever it is that they're looking for us. I think it can be one of the disadvantages but I think what's interesting about being in a huge ginormous day organization like GE is there's a there's probably a lot more wrong than that technical track and once you get to the top of that you can have I didn't say which it can be a double-edged sword to your point. That's why I think that's interesting. So I got to make my guess. I just quick follow-up question is do you feel like there is a you feel like your career limited my by saying I'm going to stay in the technical track. Do you feel like there's like a barrier to to your growth because you're saying that

Speaker 1: if your goal is to make billions of dollars millions of dollars per year. The engineering CEO of company you get out and you start your own company and you're extremely tight behind I do know that seems to be the only place that I know people that have made ridiculous amounts of money and are still technical. but personally I find it hard to believe that that's a goal because those millions of dollars in car make you happy. So for me, I think I make a ridiculous amount. I wouldn't be myself the money that they pay me so. I really struggle to go

Speaker 3: there. Set builder on feedback from a young engineer. It's a question that I've had like it if I think for young Engineers, they look at the they look at this diagram of millions and millions of wrongs on the man drought in million drawings on the technical route. And they go why would I go to the technical route when it looks like there's all these pants me here and you just the young in here and you don't know what I love is your answer is essentially if you get up and you're going to be making enough money to be happy if you love with technical out, then you're going to be happy. So yeah, there's maybe more advanced than the management route but you've lost sight of the goal if that's what you're seeing. Your direction is probably not right because you'll realize that the money is going to make you happiness and you going to wish that you would have done the technical out what I'm trying to explain shortly if you think I'll go to Technical

Speaker 1: and your insurance is in the ground. You're going to shoot yourself in the foot pain

Speaker 3: management. That's a really good points. Yeah, I agree. I think you know what you do what you want to do and then do that talk about it being in a big organization bill. And if you do it a few times, I want to talk a little bit about your perspective on being in a big political organization pros and cons of that verse being in some of the smaller companies you were in and just kind of some of your reflection being a technical person to imagine. There's a younger engineer, who knows I want to be Technical and they're trying to decide if they want to work for a small company or a huge company. What advice would you give them? What would you tell them be kind of help them decide which size of business they would be best Inn

Speaker 1: in general how much of a stomach can have for even The paperwork in the mundane and administrative types. The bigger the company the more of that you're going to get more food. She got to jump through right now to sign into computer. I've got I've got to identification keys that measure my body resistance or something like literally every two weeks. There's a major change in our email or the HR program or this or you know, I'm from Skype two teams in 2 months. your stomach for you're having to go through these routine type things that aren't you don't necessarily think or value-add the bigger the count me the more there is of that. The more red tape there is in terms of doing things like doing the career advancements and going through, you know, getting those and interviewing and I hope she have to go through but at the same time, I guess I've looked at it as they have a little bit because of the size and a little bit more tolerance for a steady work phone. So I tend to attended to gravitate to them because it was a little bit better option down for his high. You know, I'll do it right now a good time.

Speaker 3: Stephanie point is well-taken, you know, they can withstand storms a lot better. But in order to withstand the storm you got to put up with a little bit more paperwork and stuff in that mean for those listening. I had I had the fortune of working with bell. I mean, you know Indian Jam project and I think that was what that look like for me. You know what I'd be in meetings with Bill and you'll be okay. Well, we got to walk from point A to point B and there be better than 3,500 people on the phone call and someone would raise their hand and they say well but you can't just walk from A to B Billy. Are you got to you got to walk from a to c to be because of this and you know, you're okay if you can walk to see you got to walk to Dee and then to see if you can't it's it it becomes never I want to just walk for me to be in big companies. They don't there's always other things involved. Check with someone. So if you're going to try and walk through and see Daddy because remember that thing in like in and you're just like one thing I did I got no idea what you're talking about. And

Speaker 1: you

Speaker 3: always took that with such a Grace. I don't I mean, okay. Alright, just tell me the steps. Okay, I got to walk from I want to walk from A to B. Someone says I got to walk to see first. Okay, so just tell me the steps. Just tell me what they are. Okay. Here's here's what I think the steps are any problems? Okay, you know you you you you you just had a great minds that to Encino from hearing your story and all these things. Like I now see it better how you got to that but I think it's just if you're a type of person that when you you're trying to walk me to be in if you get sidetracked when people say you can't do that and that frustrates you like crazy and you're just going to go insane if that happened why big company probably not for you because it can happen all the time you guys I just for those listening to help you kind of understand what what that looks like you need to be able to adjust and taking feedback and that's just how it's going to work in a big organization.

Speaker 1: Describe. What is we have established procedure for taking they do you have all these hoops to go through and and channel. And we had this test that was running and that the test would routinely and up with bandana because we had a whole bunch of people that weren't there was one person responsible and everyone start doing this. And you can't do this. This data wasn't taking this way by this person by that group. It's that kind of thing where you said, wait a minute for the first time and look at the liquor was Han in screenwriting.

Speaker 3: But I think there's a lot of people bill that you know that they would hate life if that was their everyday meaning if a if they felt like they were making progress and anytime they made progress. They felt like the company was dragging him down for for whatever reason and so if I just bring it out for you if you're listening like that's just something to think about you. I think Billy your mind that allows you to do it and you have him sure it's still frustrating of that but you've come to terms with that's that's how it is. When you do your part of the you part of this system in this artwork betting it just vibrates on those four people so that if you're listening you can you can start to learn and make some decisions and hopefully make a little bit more informed decision the next time you're through thinking about your next career change. But I think what I think would that that that brings us close to time for a little over a normal time, but Bill you get great information. You have any last questions departing advice? You want to give on on someone they know it's finishing up college early in their career look into looking to make a big change. What was the one piece of advice? You give them

Speaker 1: pretty much covered all the running around the woods and I went there with my roommate that I went to school with. We're still the closest friends. He's being my best friend. So it's a wonderful time enjoy it and trust me and my body would be there till 2 in the morning 2 in the morning every every night for the first year in X completely and totally burnt out but you know, if you can get out there and enjoy each other and join the surroundings do it a wonderful

Speaker 3: place. Yeah, excellent. Excellent point on that I never too cuz you know, I mean, I don't think we've talked about it and previous episodes but it doesn't know Brandon that we were we were best buddies not again. We're up anywhere in the computer lab still 2 a.m. Multiple times together just finished my homework assignments. And those are some of my best memories and that you know that they stocked in the moment, but I'm really glad they're able to connect and get you out. I think you're really a lot of great information for those listening. I'm really glad you were able to bring up the technical side and chocolate more about the technical tracking talk to someone whose mind that is technical track. I mean, I think that's great. I think I'm so happy for you that that you were able to realize that and make moves toward that in addition to your other life in value goals. I'm really really very happy for you for that, and I'm very happy to hear this news. That got to hear. So thanks for your time. I really appreciate have a good day. Sofia episodes in a row now we've had people on the show who have been much there been later on in their career. It's not someone who's new in the first 10 years, but definitely Terron I think that's provided interesting perspective to our conversations. I'm it's been a lot more reflective looking back seeing looking at all these different things they've done in their career in and really being able to show that he gets off my return to make decisions now and you know, you wonder how they're going to propagate in for a lot of I guess that's just advice. That's no been a few years old but it's also good to get advice on big-picture things that and see how it's progressed like for example with it with Bill and his decision to just do the 40 hours a week. You know, you might wonder what how is Young Engineers that work out he get some great examples of how he does it and how like what exactly he does to make that successful but also we can see that you always had a great career and in that has been his mind saying that's okay. So, you know, what's an example of here's a disease. Make the pain it's cool to see how it propagates later into the career. And I think you know where which is more experienced. Like they are they allow us to see those bigger things that have been successful for them and proven to them. And I think that's valuable totally agree. I think it's interesting to see how their Crews have progressed and to see bills case how he had this technical research mindset, but he applied it to a lot of different jobs in Darius Industries. It wasn't just I'm in automotive researcher. It's I did this I worked on on bear fur bearing companies. I worked for exhaust coming at work for a GE Now doing to Ling a bing able to apply that across many different areas throughout your career. I'm entrusting able to hear his experience and see what that's like being like, you know, just cuz you do one thing now doesn't mean you have to be stuck in that job or that industry. Can you can follow the the path you want to be on there? That's a research path reproduction path. Whatever that is to support the sea that look back at people have done it in May in the moment for you be like I'm stuck in this hole and I can't get out of it, but you probably And if you realize that you don't have to keep doing that same thing over and over even if it's just talking to a different company or something more the stories may be just look across the street see what they don't think it's at my neighbor's house right now though, but you should ask him if he just like looked up out of his desk one day and that's how we started to search the lyrics. I'm glad it worked out for dinner to celebrate. We're going into going to the end of the year 2020. It's almost going to be over. I think we're all happy about that and and hopefully 21211 start so better. Engineer your career with Troy Bauman and Brennan Tamarac for more information about the show visit our website at UIC podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with Troy and I if you or someone, you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey, I would like to be on the show go on the website send us a short bio and we made it to invite you to come on and share your story. And finally if you want to show your support, please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice. Engineer your career with Troy Bauman and Brennan Tamarac for more information about the show visit our website at UIC podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with Troy and I if you or someone, you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey, I would like to be on the show go on the website send us a short bio and we made it to invite you to come on and share your story. And finally if you want to show your support, please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice.