Speaker 1: Tyrone welcome back on Today Show I sit down with Brendan to walk through his career path delete itself towards helping current engineering students. We also hope that helps young engineers in a position. They want to pay that from how exactly that pivot is done where exactly to Pivot or they're tough questions the stories like Brenda help you understand one potential way to execute the pivot Brennan turmeric have Master's and bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from Michigan Tech. He's from a small town in northern, Idaho, but it was Masters work with able to travel to Senegal to participate in the Masters International Peace Corps program. How long is a master's he worked at General Motors as a thermal calibration engineer recently been in his wife moved to West Michigan right now does Brockton don't forget Brennan. Welcome back to UIC. lower back with the next episode of UIC looking forward to this one for a long time and he's getting the last episode but we're finally finally getting to the infamous episode does Brennan you might have one why did it take us 23 episodes it took a

Speaker 2: while I think there's valid reasons why the story before it was

Speaker 1: complete go well this is it is it every complete by the young little adolescent child in Bonners Ferry Idaho

Speaker 2: Yeah man so anybody who doesn't know we talked to me we talked a lot about Michigan Michigan Tech School working Michigan I'm not from Michigan at all I grew up in North Idaho so where was small town more people at College I went to within like my town maybe the whole County I don't know so small-town stuff I grew up like super Rural and as a little kid like not too much going on in terms of like yours wasn't engineer does but I like taking things apart I did not put them back together at although I think I think my uncle once I gave me like a moped I was really I was pretty young I like an old one that didn't Runners need a battery something I kind of took it apart it's probably still in Parts at the at my dad's house out there cuz like what are these things do part of them. That was me I wasn't the person take things apart and put them back together I just took them apart and that's how they landed was like you know we get we get like K'Nex toy A big part of childhood do the mouth is roller coasters and things which was a ton of fun. As I was like this is this is pretty cool and I had to think about this lately in terms of like what actually led me to be like what's do engineering Clinic I decided to edit the one point High School. Like I think that's what I want to do engineering seems Seems like it my sister. I mean Caitlin pattern on the show. She went to school for engineering a totally different area than than me hers an environmental there, but I like things and machines and things moving and then finally in my senior year of high school. We started the first robotics program at our school. And so I already decided I was going to school with him was his senior year. So I decided I was going to go study mechanical engineering whatever that meant go to Michigan Tech going there specifically because it was a small school pretty Rural and of itself and I got a pretty good in-state tuition deal to go there cuz my dad went there for forestry not engineering. At all, my family was was big in the forest around. So that's kind of getting to robotics has a pretty good like first steps. I would like the first time would like you're building something. Like how does this all work? Cuz then in high school like at least a flea in the rural schools, like there's a lot of opportunity for welding classes drafting classes. So I had a lot of that which was which was fun and things I liked and now it's like putting it together unlike a project.

Speaker 1: Were there any other options you were looking at or was it a pretty much just always mechanical engineer?

Speaker 2: I think it was kind of always that I'm trying to remember I think at one point I might have been interested like botany and like biology type stuff if I'm thinking back like growing up like we did a lot of gardening and things we didn't have necessarily a farm with a few acres do animals like a big garden and so I was like kinda interested in that area and plant science a little bit but I don't think I ever seriously consider that cuz everything I remember was a like one of these engineering schools that I might want to go to. And go down that path a big part of it for me actually was a big interest in renewable energy. So I knew it must have been a really high school. Like I was super interested in like renewable energy and solar power and wind power icon Burdock. One point. I would like clip articles. I'd like local newspaper like hears anything related to like renewable energy like so I'm like a gas generation like real gas generation or whatever like I was super into that had so wanted to wanted to go down that route and figured like engineering seems like the route to go down. I think I've discovered later is what I like I didn't actually will learn the area of engineering I would should have to actually do what I want to do, but I didn't know that it's time

Speaker 1: for any point High School. Ask your friends to come over to look at your paper cut gear for your paper cutouts of wind energy articles. Yeah, I would say engineer outside. So don't worry about it. Just go. Ok.

Speaker 2: My friends don't come over. I

Speaker 1: have one friend and he said he wasn't interested. That is that is funny. Okay, it's about you and your parents are very very forestry heavy. I mean, you might both your mom and your dad I have been involved in engineering. I guess we're relevant to this discussion. So interesting to see how you got those kind of like I guess cues from other things. So, okay. So you decide on Michigan Tech though even before doing first robotics, and so you just what's it like going many states over for college?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't I can't remember what I was feeling when I happened cuz I only visited like I never did a tour of Campus. I never liked saw it was like I just literally looked up online and looked a little bit. I knew my dad went there so I can he has his family he grew up in Michigan not in the UK on the Michigan Tech but the lower Michigan so we would like drive through there in the summer sometime and look stop and see campus. But like I was the last time that happened was really early high school. It's not actually closed when I was making decision. So I kind of just like on a little bit of a whim. I guess. I've been like they have a good engineering program. Like I know I know that at least I heard that and I think it being a smaller school that was very much outside for those of us. I know I mean, we've always said many Michigan Tech grad on the show because of the network we have but if you're listening you've never been there. It's a very real well known university is in a very rural setting and you only need to drive like 3 minutes and you're out in the woods. That was I think a big a big Draw Tattoo for me at the time at least and I mean it was that about it. But yeah, it was like get in the car. We're loading up. We're doing a 30 hour road trip across the country for my stuff and we're going to go and shop and see how it goes. So I had no idea of what I was doing. I think I decided I wanted to get into so I want to go to school and state. I didn't feel the need to do that and talk like what's go try something new maybe try and reinvent myself a little bit. So I don't think that worked out. I was a pretty Lake dorky nerdy kid in high school. I think that definitely carried over into college for people to do me. So I failed at that completely but it was good. It was it was everything. I think I'd hoped it would be at the time but not decide on what I was getting into but definitely different. I need a different when when you go somewhere where you're far from home where you have to plan on your vacations of you're going to fly somewhere my family spread out all across the u.s. So it's like I'm flying to Idaho or Arizona or Louisiana for holidays getting rides downstate like Nothing going to score of Michigan Michigan Tech. Like you can take the airport and expensive fights or you can go drive down to Detroit or Minneapolis. So either way I'm getting like a 6/8 hour car ride to the get on plane to go somewhere. So that part of things but then it would bother me like I guess I don't think I've ever really homesick or missing home in Faraway. So

Speaker 1: pretty solid picture of young Brandon engineer. I guess it's probably fit in then well with the Michigan Tech curriculum in and kind of your expectations are I mean it fit well with you you didn't add any point. I feel like this,

Speaker 2: isn't me. I don't think so. I think in general a big switch like a funny one. Let me it's always a switch going from high school to college for me. It was kind of a rude awakening at the beginning cuz like my high school didn't have calculus going to have a lot of these courses a lot of people come into being like I had all these classes before so I'm either like retake on the college level or I've already got a bunch of credits. I'm like, I don't know what I'm getting into. So it was it was interesting switch being like yeah, I'm pretty good at high school to me. Like I do I have to try a lot harder here at College which I think is true for a lot of people but now I'm moving into I mean no more heavy sciency Ricky on side of things to a lot of different stuff that I hadn't been to before but it was really good and the expectations of of what I wanted at the time but also like what are your expectations? You don't you don't know so we know ahead of time what what you're going to learn here. Like I don't I don't know what's Statics is like that kind of sounds like statistics, but apparently it's not All these things but as it progressed through it, obviously it really did it didn't match up and I think the the part for me was and I mean, this is generic collagen in general like you get to pick a little bit about what you learned about the extras and some knowing what I wanted to do of I wanted to I was interesting this renewable energy side of things and going through and getting learn more about a little bit more about what that meant what I needed to learn. So in addition to its why have I have a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering but I also got a minor degree in electrical engineering reminder not an extra treat their mind or not to mention during cuz I knew that wasn't area I was interested in and it was good to be able to switch into that and then get more experience in that way. I think something else for me that was interesting was I did not do like most people I didn't do a like a final senior design project at Tech. I think they might have a sub universities but I can't speak for it. You can kind of do like a more years long project type thing. So it was called Enterprise programs at a tech. But as being part of a team Working on it for years as would be a few years while you're there and doing like a final project within that team on a special something special eyes that you're working on. It would count as your graduation requirements of a set of cramming all that into a year-long project your senior year where you kind of busy in Russian stressed a little more spread out. So are there were I did that specifically this is a good one to work out like a solar car project that I don't think ever actually worked out actually started started restarted that team during my time lyrics I wanted to it. So that was actually interesting experience of building a team getting something off the ground having think of it like a business side of things to of like hey, we actually need money to do this. How do we do that? How do we get sponsors and then working on it for a few years? That was a good thing to eat at I enjoyed cuz it allowed a little more hands-on experience a little more free range of getting to explore new areas outside of General curriculum, and it was something something I enjoy getting.

Speaker 1: yeah well that's kind of a cool way for you to get experience in something that you're interested in you know cuz you had you talked about how you arranged in renewable energy and um sure you kind of look at ways to get involved in that and you know especially early in an engineering degree does not. And I'm not a lot of Hands-On opportunities in certain things and so enter for the cool thing about the Enterprise program is that you can start that even your first or second year inside to get cool hands-on experience, but I imagine you look in there wasn't actually one for on renewable energy but use and just decided to make yourself a recreated in this case but I think it's a good example for those listening me know if you're in an institution how many have an interest like you can look out for ways to get hands-on experience in that they might call Enterprise or undergraduate researcher are other things but I thought a great way to kind of get experience in can I test the waters as it as the show stuck by Monsta X you test the waters with internships but you can also test it with hands-on experience at the University and so it sounds like you are able to do it in a minute it came unfortunately for you with a little extra baggage because you have to start at like finding money And I'm sure that administrative side which is never the funds. I but honestly probably hindsight now it's probably pretty realistic of engineering engineering is not a hundred percent of time do anything. I like it's often times only has part hopefully my fishing part but you know, sometimes they even a man or any percentage of the time doing things that you actually enjoy doing and the other majority of the time doing things that our paperwork and other logistics set

Speaker 2: a timer starting up around project you would have to do a lot of that extra leg work to get it going but like you said like in College Station undergrad like this is a perfect time to try things and stay up and say your amounts we are what you like and if you don't like the consequences for failure are usually quite small. No one is really expecting much of someone at the undergrad level. At least we know the professors and stuff. Like it's all about learning and experiencing things and thinking things out it's not like you start a project and it fails or folds doesn't work out that anyone looks down on you in any big way, so it's a great time. got your something you want to learn like go find someone to help you do it or starve yourself or whatever like going to do it three times to

Speaker 1: help continue to push you more toward renewable energy I guess walking through kind of how you continue that

Speaker 2: trend yeah I don't that is almost a little bit where it ends in some places so thinking about what I was doing there so I did that the most undergrad and I think during that time I wanted to try and get like experience working in that like what is an actual job is a mechanical engineer look like in Steelton just came to this conclusion of being like okay like I'm really interesting solar panels but like there isn't necessarily a whole like I guess what I want to do in that space do I want to do like science of developing new solar South that's that's not engineering really that's like hardcore science experimentation on one end of chemistry and things do I want to work on like developing systems out of those like that's a little more electrical where does mechanical finding this I don't know so it was kind of like what is this song Mean do I need to I need to look in another area figure out what this what opportunities are out there so it's kind of doing that but then also being like thinking long-term would like a few years I I need to get a job so I should probably get some more experience in this so thinking about like experience you do internships and stuff I did not get an internship at all until after my fourth year. So I did identified your program common theme here and I both did you try to do anything extra in engineering went to get a minor just just add an extra year to it. Try to climb that in

Speaker 1: that's even if you're bringing in a lot of credits every two earlier Point like expressing nowadays. I think it's pretty relatively easy to bring in at ten eyck AP credits or dual enrollment through community college credits for people to come in with even 15 credits are semesters were so you can probably add a minor and still be in four years, but I think the point we're trying to make though is it's not about what possible it's about. What you should do in terms of like having fun in life and enjoying school and five years is a great plan that stuff but but

Speaker 2: like so every summer up to this point cuz like I still owe you money. I'll pay for school. I have been going back home and actually working out in the woods for the forest service doing a lot of various activities including chainsawing to live in a fire fighting all these things and I like doing that and make good money. And so I've been putting off getting like a real engineering internship until my fourth year and I was like, well, I guess it's time to do this and this is going to get the power of networking here to this is one of the bigger the more crazy stories of my job search. But so so Career Fairs, if you have met your University definitely go through the best way you're going to get any sort of internships. So I go to the career fair. Resume and everything I talked to a few companies and I go up and I talked I get the line to talk to people at John Deere. So John Deere comes in recruits and hires lot of people from Michigan Tech. So I go up there. I can't wait in line at see the recruiter coming up first is there and I go and talk to him and I have my resume and I get my little Spiel and they're like you from Bonners Ferry and I'm like, yeah and it made my Jesus my hometown Bonners Ferry Town middle of nowhere and he's like, yeah by Tim and I'll save his last name, but he seemed like yeah, I know Sam like ya like my family knows him. He was like works in the woods there and stuff. He's like, yeah. Yeah, he sits right next to me and I'd forgotten that this this guy from my hometown had gotten a job working for the logging division of John Deere doing some dumb stuff in like sale the thinker teknikleri or something and had moved for a little while. And so he literally sat next to this guy that I was talking to his recruiter. So I was like, that's crazy like Small world here is someone that I know from my hometown of the time talking to here at the career fair. So I get a call later that night for my dad. He's like, oh I heard you were talking to the guy had been talking to this guy is this mutual friend Tim talk to him and I got to call my dad and got around to it. So this small world thing of like people to talk to a recruiter anywhere else might have to know people, you know, and I might call him up and ask about you how it's it's crazy how that happens

Speaker 1: if the craziest thing about networking to meet you like we've talked on this show about how networking can be beneficial and you might initially think well, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And I I've even given example on the show, you know, imagine you're hiring manager and you got ten thousand applicants and you got 3 on your desk and a person, you know comes to you and recommend them and it's okay. Well that makes sense networking can even help I'm like the smallest a frigate even when they don't even even when it's not even a recommendation like hey, I I work with them technically and I think they'd be a good technical fit. They have the skill. Even if it's just hey, I know them which has no relevance like I could know them and they could not be a good candidate. I couldn't hold them and I could know them and know nothing about their technical skills, but just the fact that there is a connection sometimes is exactly what needs to happen in evidence was funny cuz I use yours is just a great illustrative example of that. It's like I've been sounds like that. You knew Tim in high school Ellicott no idea about what your technical ability is as an engineer

Speaker 2: friends with, you know, I went to school with with his kids and stuff but like yet no idea of how I was a student anything. You're surely just I know you you're a good person. Right? He does know

Speaker 1: you as a person typically if you're going to tell someone, you know, someone like in there like a bad person whatever that means like you would mention that or whatever and so there is a side of it but I couldn't so that also emphasizes the point of your ability to network successfully can have more of an effect just about your personality. Stand by Your technical ability and I think that sometimes a confusing thing for engineers could have my technical abilities everything and it's we talked about already on the show how Ya Tailfeather work, but you're you're so sure of your ability to work with others coming part two, but is also applies very hard and networking to like your ability to sit down and have a beer with someone and have a conversation and then being enjoyable person to be around like that can be a huge part in that working and has nothing to do with your technical ability, but could have everything to do with the next job that you have

Speaker 2: your stuff. But so, is there any way through that experience? I I got an internship a John Deere when I was actually there for for that year and the year after which white why would I have an internship after I graduated look at that? But that was a great experience like obviously it if you're in school and haven't had internship go do it you need to if anything you need to figure out if you want to do that career for you know the rest of your life whatever I was talking about in the show you need experience to see what it's like. And also I think my advice is if you're at like a large company where you think you might be coming back to them for multiple internships definitely take the time to do a little exploration in that company to see what other opportunities are out there really set yourself up for that. So it's my first year. I was working at Product Development Center or basically tractors in instrumentation. So I would like to work on the products but inside the test lab and text you like that, but I want to get to the forestry side of things which is a different facility in a different city. And so I basically just set up like, you know contacted the the intern coordinator whatever it was like hey, can I do a job shadow for someone else who works over in that facility in forestry in the lecture. So I went over there for like a day got to see what it was like and then the next summer. Like I said, I want to work there and they put me at a job there. An internship there and so it was really great. But it kind of takes you to take some of the initiative to be like, you know, that's what I want to go do that's why I want experience because you know these these people are coordinating tens if not hundreds of interns every summer and they might try to get you in a spot you want but it's hard for them to do. So you got it. You got to take some initiative and really really put yourself out there. What you want to do? But those are really great. And if I was going to go right into industry after undergrad I probably would have gone in and work for them again, but that isn't what I did at all actually. So as any of her. I also got a master's degree in mechanical engineering but I did it a little bit differently. So if if anyone remembers back to the episode with Tony Hayes who did a Peace Corps program and a master's degree, I did the same thing and that's that's out 29 actually met part way through my time at Tech my sophomore year they denounce that. They were starting a program where you could get a mechanical engineering degree and do Service in the Peace Corps that same time so is a program a masters. Yes, I do time of the Peace Corps to Andy idea was to how can you like use that engineering skills in the field in a different context in developing countries in communities in need. And so that's why I decided to do and so after I graduated undergrad I went right into that program and it was it was really interesting because it was a year on campus where I was taking classes me outside the realm of normal Masters engineering more into things of like, how do you do engineering at a low resource environment or how do you include the community on projects? You're trying to build a set of engineering for someone how do you engineer with someone which if you don't think if you only think about engineering the context of the product of your building and not the person who's using it you really missing out on on half of the story there because someone actually has to use what you're what you're making. And so if you're making that for certain audience that is what may be different than what you're used to your assumptions could be wrong and you have to include lot of input in that so it was interesting to tell learn about that and then also get to go in the field and act that out so I I live for two years and set it off which is a country in West Africa and my my day job would like to say when I was there was doing agroforestry which is a big word for incorporating trees into farming that was that was what was what I did there was how can I help people plant trees for for gardening for lots of different stuff but the same time I was working on a master's project which was focused around water pumps so people they're obviously don't have a lot of running water sometimes they're pulling a lot of water from Wells out of her hand dug in the ground with a bucket and a rope in a pulley and I was like Technologies already exists how to fix this problem but why aren't they adopted here so it did kind of a journey on what are the the issues with current Technologies out there you know what the cost is Audi what is it and how can we improve upon that so I focused on trying to improve a certain type of human powered water pump that would hopefully be better have to reduce cost on how to make it easier to use, now that's an interesting journey of how to do that how you how do you make something an environment that that doesn't have the resources the facilities like you're used to it you don't maybe have internet or can't get help there's no Google access to help you is it just an interesting way of thing I'm flexing entering muscle for a different context a different resource and getting do that in an academic area to till I come back validate your ideas do what you do in the field match up with what you'd can test for in the lab and how you make something like a high-value out of that so is really great experience and then and I could talk for a long time about the other parts of it but that's that's outside the scope of this

Speaker 1: yeah you got to go somewhere over I think would be really helpful for the broader listenership is obviously at some point you were in undergrad and you were thinking you wanted to do something besides go to John Deere for for whatever reason Is that you elected to go for this program? And so I guess can you talk about how you made that happen financially? Like how how like, how did you how did this all work? I mean, I think you you is another example you creating opportunity that I think it was listening who might want to create opportunities for themselves could could learn from

Speaker 2: if your fish in your fishing, you know, you're looking for here. So few things one was I was also involved in a little bit of research lately undergrad around sort of developing World Technologies a little bit and also in the 3D printing space it was like, how can we use this technology to like what can it be used for another country? Call me. So that way me things like what the project could could be formed around this and well, that wasn't that so I would I did my final project on it's allowed me to think about like what could fund a project like this. What kind of funding can I get because once you get out of undergrad there's a lot of different funding opportunities. You're not going for scholarships. You're going to like fellowships. And so I applied for a fellowship from the National Science Foundation, which basically funds a hole like your master's program and get you a stipend on top of it. So it makes it more like at a job and I was lucky enough to be a recipient of that. So I receive funding for for a master's degree to pay for all of it as well as give me some money on the side just for living but applying for a lot of things do if there's a lot of fellowships out there a lot of through the government. So the National Science Foundation Department of Defense NASA National Institutes of Health Department of energy, are they still have programs there trying to fund people who are getting graduate degrees to do research that might, you know have an impact in some way and so they look For these every year they're giving out thousands of these two different students across the country and applying for them can be a lot easier than you think. I had to a basically fill out an application which was basic information about myself and then write three to page essays. I don't know if that's what it is still today, but it's basically tried a few papers and get tens of thousands of dollars if you get selected in my

Speaker 1: iPad easy, I mean I need with Brennan when he did this and it was a pretty excruciating process developing the perfect words for these do paper. So it's going to take a lot of work, but I don't mean that I'm not able to be clear on that. You can create opportunities for yourself see fully funded Masters or or and or Ph.D program with options out there that are designed for that. And I think that's great for those listing that I may be thinking. Well, I don't know if I'm not industry is kind of cool, but I'm thinking about maybe doing something else. I have any interest in this other space like The lot of these things like that and if the government runs a pretty Broad in scope and you can tailor a lot of things cortical things are interested in into projects that they would fund and so I guess that's the main thing I want I wanted to take away from from that section swear that I just want people to realize it's kind of like the cool part about your story but it was. That's far is your ability to take your interest in can I create opportunities with it's creating a Enterprise team because you wanted to do that or creating this funding for you to get your Master's. I think that's great man asking for those listening that that have interest in the willingness to do what I think this is what your story is a great example of what that looks like to do at what are examples of things that you do to actually make what you want to have happen. And so yeah, that's awesome. I got

Speaker 2: this now, but at the time I wasn't happening I was not confident in any of it at all. I like I wasn't even thinking about even applying for the fellowship says like I don't I don't think I'm going to I'm not, you know smart enough. I'm not A good enough idea, but I'd like some Iced Out on these things for a while. I was like, okay. Well, maybe I will let me go talk to someone like you think it's a good idea and I like yeah, you should do this. So none of these things were me just like jumping out being like I'm definitely made for this. I'm going to do great like this totally fits it now. I was like, I don't think I'm I don't think I made for this is so don't if you're not confident in it. Like don't let that stop you because there's definitely more opportunity out than you think and there's you you could be a perfect fit for something that you don't actually think you are

Speaker 1: a lot of failure along the way to like, I remember example like from you trying to raise money for so what kind of like I'm over there like looking like a bunch of companies that you never got back to you even donate anything

Speaker 2: called reach out to people on LinkedIn who are alumni or worked at companies like mad. There was a lot of failure along the way in a lot of good Lessons Learned in that but yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: When do I mean you could have you could have followed the template of get a mechanic? I need a degree to take these classes you do senior design you do an internship and then you work at a company when you're done. But you knew that you were that's not what you want to do to you. What you kind of went down that path near as this isn't what I want to do. Like I want to be more focused than these other things and I think it's great how you made two opportunities for yourself to do that. I think that's that's the point. I think it's really unfair to those listing is you can make Japanese results going to take work and maybe doing some other things that you're not answering me instead to get there like administrative stuff for raising money, but if possible and undergrad the great time to do it, so okay. So you tell you I guess yeah, I don't think we'll listen to talk too much about your Peace Corps times have I got a little bit different here. I think maybe the biggest thing is kind of wrapping up your Masters kind of your thoughts by comparing your your master's program to a different one. I mean, I think the Masters in Peace Corps is no longer an option anymore. So it's not really a thing for people even if they wanted to do it. So I don't you know, there's nothing too much. Anson comparing that to a traditional want for those two maybe would want to decide but

Speaker 2: the benefits benefits of putting aside what what I did to Sibley in mind I think and I don't think these are my words 500 someone else but like the benefit of a master's degree in a lot of ways of not necessarily the knowledge you gained but it is the way that you choose like to think about things and approach problems and expand and your kind of your mind on how you go about what you're doing. And so that's really what that's really what the extra push was in the Masters of I think of the benefit is is it how do I how do I think about at Broadwater more ambiguous problems at Arches from a textbook? How do I think approaching a project? How do I think more critically about things because you'll have to do a lot of that really in no matter what Masters you do, maybe not of course work, but if you're doing any sort of research for anything like that, there are questions that no one has soda has the answer to their not a book answer you to go and figure that out and still learning that skills and how to operate in that space is Really beneficial and it will help you a lot further on matter what you want to do. If you want to continue on a PhD if you want to go and get a job and Industry, whatever like having that just extra way of a problem solving critical thinking of the huge benefit of getting a master's so don't just think of it as I want to get you no experience this technical area, but think about it is I want to speed generally generally better and how I how I solve problems

Speaker 1: are problems that are not that we talked about it. I can't remember what episode but the example of you know, if you come to a problem that's already know. It's already been in the back of the book. Like that's that's what undergrad is learning what you don't know that has already been solved but there's this other realm of learning what you don't know that no one's ever solve the four different types of learning and yeah, the research Masters, you know starts are really pushing that route and I think that's it. Sounds like you're able to connect continue that in your experience is great. I guess let's talk a little bit about how you how you wrapped up your Masters and kind of proceeded to life. I don't hook it

Speaker 2: into

Speaker 1: your life.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so so I had some time, you know after I wrapped up and did my did my defense for a masters finish up some classes and things it was like yet not now have to get a job where am I at and what they have the convenience of a few months, if you know chilling around campus not having too many responsibilities and Sound lyrics the point of Mike. Okay have a good job, but I saw this interest in like renewable energy is an interest like thermal systems, which is very very Broad and it did you a section of gym near that down a little bit. But again, it came time to be like, here's the the career fairs coming off for now a lot of camps. This company will come pre career fair cuz I like we want to lock everyone down ahead of time. And so I had no intention of going into the automotive industry at all, but it was an opportunity. some companies going to be on campus and I said you know what like electric vehicles are becoming a thing like that kind of false renewable energy space a little bit like I can I can make in my mind make some connections there be an interesting area to get into so I went and talked to some people at General Motors run campus one day and I think I did it up like a brief interview on like the bed of a pickup or something with someone because I wasn't asking to be around the next day for when they were doing interviews alike will talk to you now talk to someone there and then this is more networking and then I met someone later in the day who I was like man I remember you from undergrad a little bit like you seem familiar to me okay like yours I didn't know you but I do know you look like so I can talk to this other guy J who is really great and what he basically did was afforded a resume on his boss and be like hey here's someone like I know we're kinda looking for someone does it work and that kind of kicked off like the process of getting in the interview process with with General Motors and going on the path of getting high With them and a lot of that was was making connection with someone and not necessarily just adding a resume to the pile but getting at okay, here's a face-to-face you're so me. Like I said of for sending it through your Nork reprocess, like I'm going to write my boss. I'm going to go with that and that worked out really well. So again, like make connections with people in any way you can it's definitely going to pay off and so I accepted a job at GM doing a calibration. So we we talked to Adam Hinds and on the show before him and I work very close to her time there. He was stuck all about calibration, but I'll go into that more but I was doing active thermal management calibration. So working on a new thermal management system, which is which is out now, that's why I can talk about it, but I knew nothing about the job I was getting into I didn't I'm not a car guy really tall Troy can attest to this and in our experience together like I never studied engines. I never really been interested in it. So I'm like, all right. I'm working for automotive company now, I guess this is what I'm doing with the learn a lot. And so calibration specifically said to give a brief overview was basically everything on your vehicle these days in a modern cars controlled by a computer and you have to make that function correctly. So my job was taking the hardware of a cooling system. So in a vehicle in these new systems, it's you do multiple electrically controlled valves or pumps and sensors that are a lot different from an old system taking the hardware for those that someone else made and designed taking the software to control those and the algorithms of someone else may design and I have to make those work together to like the performance standards that we want for a vehicle. And the first thing about this is like it's not that none of the education. I had didn't matter but when you go from solving things on paper and problems to now solving things that are new and haven't been done before and are not just a simple equation like it becomes very Hands-On and experimental and just trying to figure out what the right answer is because we weren't I'm not necessarily designing something where you know the outcome is we need to have a bridge or whatever the hold this much red bean that can do whatever it's yeah we need to have this the system work to keep the engine cool but to maximize fuel efficiency and it has to meet with these emissions standards you're using tools that you didn't have in college like proprietary tools you have to learn on the job like software and things And it's a very much an iterative process something that like you can't answer you learn in school. You can learn how to how to problem-solve and critical think but not had to do a specific job. So it's always a good learning environment of which to get your hands dirty and do things

Speaker 1: a good example of a typical engineering job where the work isn't something you're taught in University that what you're talkin University's how to learn think critically and have a general understanding of physics and how the universe interact with itself and you take that bundle of now from University and you go sit at this job where you apply all that and you know, it's like for you is like well, I took a thermal dynamics class. I know some heat transfer between two just in the heat transfer coefficient to get you know, you just need to know that if this piece of metal is touching this water that's colder. Keep going to go from the metal to the water like that. Yeah, okay, it seems like trivial but like that's a simple example, but as an engineer you get experience to a bunch of systems and physical things in the end. If you take that broad knowledge into a general engineering job and I don't know I have no idea what the stats are. But I think there's a lot of jobs in engineering that are that type of thing where it's you're just taking your bra ad engineering Knowledge from University and your critical thinking skills and taking that and you're just asked to apply it every day the best you can and it sounds like that's that's what yours was probably very similar to your Masters experience where you were just get this broad question and you're trying to understand these systems and but in some ways probably also very very very very different cuz you're going from you know, developing country in Africa to General Motors. Probably one of the most of all the prophecies from an engineering perspective. I'm in complex systems. How is that adjustment? How did you how did how did it go for you? How did how did you get comfortable in that?

Speaker 2: It was a lot of just like feeling dumb for a long time. I got very lucky in that that my co-workers that I worked with. We're very smart and like very encouraging a lot of ways and we're all kind of learning together but just always understand me like you're learning something new whether it's you're jumping into a new projects and you have to figure it out or there's no a small change something you do not for a while but something a little bit different now like what is the opportunity to learn their because If you just try to let go through and follow steps and be like, okay, whatever like I know if I do this something works out but not understand the why always you're not really under you're only getting a big picture understanding what's going on. And so for me, it was a lot of like asking questions and looking dumb or feeling like I'm looking dumb but realizing also there's a lot of people around you who it might have the same questions or might not actually know anything super in-depth either but they're able to get by with her job. So it's takes a lot of that big body humility and being like you to explain to me three times. How about how about the fourth time? Maybe I'll get it the fourth time with you explain to me, but then just like building up the confidence of doing it. So I got I don't know what lucky or interesting experience of like joining a team and after of muscle people working on one thing and then after a year, I was the only one working on it fully in charge of it and being like I don't necessarily understand everything, but I guess it's my responsibility now, so I'm going to I'm going to own it and take the do to make the most of it that I can do something new like learn ask them questions and just just own it and go with it

Speaker 1: you don't need to be at work in the automotive industry solutely not I think there's there's some ways we're can be beneficial like basically in like your Rolodex of the word you know you're going to be more comfortable like when you get starting to like yeah I will always connects to the cylinder head and routes down to this if your car person you might already know that if experiencing but it's nothing you can't learn if you know I don't know I think I am a machine I didn't feel like I don't like in some ways but was it just because I knew where stuff was like I was at an advantage but it's you can learn it is very very easy to learn in that I can guarantee I don't think I would you already of Engineers that work in the automotive industry are not car people like working on their car on the weekend say people yeah the difference

Speaker 2: between like being a car guy we think of someone who works on in the car on the weekend if someone who does the job is like you know the person who works in the car on our weekends doesn't need to understand like a fuel injection strategies or pressures and systems or they don't need to understand and like emissions Diagnostics which is a huge part of Automotive like you know are emissions making sure that we're detecting broken things like these are all stuff that you wouldn't have to learn if you're just a normal car guy but if you're an engineer you're like it's just it's it's it's another system it's another thing that I can I can pick up an understand like if it wasn't in a car if he's somewhere else and I could I could learn it so hard to say maybe fifty-fifty split of light Car Guys vs non-car guys I guess I guess that's that's an unofficial number but like I work the other people who are like in different on cars to a little bit be like in nursing job when I get through stuff but like when I work my car's in the weekends and that's fine

Speaker 1: I think the big take away from me there is just when you're looking at jobs and places you want to go like don't get industry bias meaning don't be like walnuts Person, so I can't go into the motor industry. If you're interested in thermal interaction and calibration of sensors and sensing that were like calibration the great job working with a car but you know, I don't like I think yeah, this is my,. For those listening like I mean, you can look at you look at your interest and then go from there in terms of what industry and job title you're looking for.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I'll give a little bit more cuz I know sometimes we try to give a little bit dated a better understanding with the day-to-day part of the job

Speaker 1: was like working day today at the at the general

Speaker 2: General man. Yeah,

Speaker 1: I mean that Junior was a huge company. It is their Engineering Process in like all of the bureaucracy like this is big. This is big engineering business. And so yeah, I like that walking that

Speaker 2: yeah. So what let me talk a little bit about what it's like being a a calibrator first and then in the day-to-day of a job because in in the automotive industry being a The calibrator is one of the more Hands-On jobs, you will get with actually driving like a vehicle and running an engine. So I was I was driving Vehicles all the time prototype Vehicles mule Vehicles. Like now we we we put this new engine your system in. I've got to go test it out. So I got to work the Milford Proving Grounds, which was great. You get miles and miles of test track your and you're going out you're driving your collecting data looking at afterwards seeing how things work. But you're also you also doing a lot of things that like outside of the normal realm of driving a vehicle. So many days, I would go into a thermal chamber and I would drive a vehicle at like -20 C or something or which is nothing can see but pretty cold Fahrenheit. I don't know exactly what it is. But other times I mean riding running at like, you know, 120 degrees Fahrenheit going across all these temperature ranges doing a lot of just like putting your foot down fully on the pedal and understanding how the engine response. you do a lot of interesting stuff of things you can't do on the normal road because the DAT unsafe there other people around playground these clothes tracks so it's it's interesting to do that and then enters to be very involved in like data and data analysis getting to run your own little experiments of okay what if I if I try this how did things respond let me go back and look at the data so it's kind of a mix of collecting data in a vehicle going back looking at the data and making adjustments in terms of your set of calibrations that control how the engine operates you also would likely get to go you'll get to travel a little bit thank just about every automaker has multiple spots in the US where they travel on test strips so that way they can get in for they can get real Driving Experience their vehicles over the road usually altitude at cold temperatures in hot temperatures so if you want to go drive around certain parts of the country in a new vehicles calibration can be a place to do that so those are I get those that that's the general area and some highlights over there that's like some downfalls to it too but engine What is it like working for a huge company? Man, that is better than a big question there. Lots of things about it. You are definitely like one piece and a larger puzzle when you're working on a large system such as a vehicle. There are thousands of people working on that at different stages. So like I worked on one small part of an engine, there are other people working on this seats on the body on the frame who I don't know who they are. But we're all making something that comes together to make a functional product. So you might you'll be working on something that you won't even know everyone who else was working on the final products that comes off the line, but you're responsible for your part and they're responsible for theirs and then also just thinking about where you fit in the system of how does information flow down to you cuz they're all these processes their students reviews. There's no Chief engineer's who people are making decisions that affect you that you might not get to say in I'm so it's understanding how that works and also understanding how you represent yourself and your work back up that chain to say. Okay, here's the work ID adheres. I know why it's good and explain that to a different levels of of audiences because because like you are working on a large product. No one knows everything. So how do you take your area that you're really specialized in and explain that to a broader audience so they can understand and they they will also like buying that your work is good that can be a very interesting challenge in some ways and and also dealing with people in all different parts of the company to be coming to you because they think you're responsible for something, you know, it's in my case, you know, the engine didn't warm up. Right why there's a lot of things that play into that like that's that's not just a me question that might involve 10 other people to understand that so working a large company very very interesting from that perspective because it's never just you with always a team on multiple levels. He might be part of a ATM. Do you work on underneath your boss, but you might have You know responsibility report out to someone else on a different team in their area or another one. You got to work cross-functionally a lot of ways so you could tell you to work for lot of different people definitely

Speaker 1: part of that too is also just realized that big companies things just take longer because of that, you know, you can't bring in on a she's responsible for the whole system and she can just come in and tell you everything you need to know about the system. It's like, okay. Well if you have a question, sometimes it's it's a it's a car with 30 people because everyone's got a can have anything in his back while okay. Well thermal thermal calibration says it could be there but the hardware guy says while maybe it's this or stop when people say mama could be this too and you know what they say, it's unfortunate that the disadvantage of in kind of game of these big companies know you're playing this game and I don't like I can see how people get to that conclusion work feels like that cuz you kind of feel like you're playing this chess game of moving these pawn and Do you want to call it? I mean it but it's a sense of this idea of there's many many people coming together to try and achieve some goal and it doesn't matter what it is weather for engineering objective or making ice cream like, you know, I think they're just going to be kind of some pros and cons of trying to do that with a big group of people even use think it was Game of the game telephone the game that when you're kidding you play telephone game in like this show on your communication. Give me some hope for I like try doing that but with a very technical thing it's it gets tricky quick and it gets a lot of misinformation and and a lot of information if left out and I do a lot of a lot of different things and so I think some people can find that very frustrating though, I guess is what I'm saying. Like they're there some people that get in that environment. They find a very frustrating and that's why we talked about a lot in the show understand if a bigger smaller companies for you, some people don't mind some people like working with bunch of people and they enjoy the fact that their job has them interacting with people from all over the world or multiple people every single day and they they like That's great. I think it's just looking internally and seeing what kind of best for you is important and internship can help with that cuz I start to give you that exposure what the difference

Speaker 2: is definitely yet. The big company thing it's and looking back on it. I'm sure there's lots of things. I'm I'm missing about it. But yeah, like it's it's it's different in so many ways and I think the big part is that like you will you might not see the big picture and everything because there are a lot of different people that have input into that and they are many levels above you that stuff just kind of comes down to you and you have to roll with it. That is the downside is decisions can kind of be a one-way Street a little bit from the top down and pray that all such a deal with the product you're working on like in my case. I'm getting something that has been in development for years already that you know, some like research area was looking at that came down two levels then how do we have to get in the production and stuff? So by the time it gets to me like I have little say in How how can we make it better? If I see a problem that lies outside my remote control? Like it's likely that it won't be changed because it's already been ingrained in the process in the product for years and making that change my cost a lot of money and time and so that can always be a little bit of struggle is when you're down sort of on on the Bottom Rung. We're in calibration, especially your you're almost the last the last man on the totem pole at least in terms of workflow because you have to make things work before they go out the door cuz I can always be a little frustrating so you don't always know who made these decisions or where they came from. There's not always You know a good communication trail of how the stuff was made and I can be deadly one area of frustration of how you fit into the whole system and and what you're dealing with on it on your own and not knowing where the information came from but to be fair. There are

Speaker 1: some people out there that like that they wanted engineering jobs if they go to work 40 hours a week or so and they told that they this is what we need to accomplish and I think they do that and they do it to the best of our ability and that's good with them and make me how they do that for rest of life. That's great. And I think big companies allow you to do that. Like if that's your mind that you know, maybe work isn't necessarily something that you I don't got a super boring to you or you know, it's every-night. Number one. You got other things outside of life that you want them or prioritize your time on and you need a job until like I think that's fine. Big companies are the opportunities for you to do that. They need seats many butts in seats in someplace Africa.

Speaker 2: Text means there's those last year and is less having to hire and fill it and everything else. I'm not saying it's necessarily great for your career. But like if you're comfortable doing with that, like there's definitely opportunities to do that. There's people who then calibrators for tens of years for their whole career basically and they're comfortable doing that. They don't see the need to move in if that's if that's where they line up with you. Like there's just definitely a good chance. You keep doing that.

Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's kind of like a big company like if you you get into something and you like it you can do it for the rest of your life if you're going on as long as you're good at it and that's cool. Like I think that's great. I got four people that have them. I think that's awesome. So so you're not a gym right now, I guess what's transitional of the incomes of hi how you knew you want to make a change and can't talk talk about that in terms of doing some different.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I I was in my job there for probably Two years and then realize I want to try something else within the company like I wanted to move morency electrical Dee Electric Vehicle space that was kind of wore my interest initially when you know back in college what I want to do, so I said, okay like let's start looking for a job for that. Unfortunately around the time where I was going to start doing that there was a very large round of layoffs at GM which animal lives in the Detroit area, Michigan you may have may have seen that and going through layoffs is a very interesting time kind of scaring a lot of ways that you don't know if you're going to be the one who lose your job next wanted to seems they're just the walking people out the door left and right for whatever reasons they may be doing that. I won't get into the philosophies of that I guess in some feelings I have about it. But but that kind of delayed my my job search a lot of ways because when you're laying off people you probably aren't also, you know, moving people around the company a lot and hiring a lot of new people. So that that delayed my search for a job by about six months or so and I saw I saw I start applying for jobs with their opening back up and I apply for a few jobs in the company. I don't remember internal job postings applied for like over six month. I'd like five jobs. I interviewed for two of them, I would and I'd I didn't get them. So it just a note about like internally looking for jobs that can be an interesting process because you're already in the company. So kind of reach out to managers who might be delisted the hiring manager for that job and try to learn more about it because you're in the company, you know, it's a little less like you no cold calling someone reaching out if you can reach him out a little more informally and learn more about it. But they're also not necessarily trying to recruit as much in the sense of like when you when you first join a company know they'll give you the whole universe is why we're great and awesome and all that kind of stuff when you're you're interviewing for a new job. It's like hey prove to us that that you're going to be the best candidate for this or not. So try to recruit you as much as we know you want this job so they can just be a little different. They could be a little more informal diction to do video interviews. This of this is pre covid times for like recorded video interviews, that would then be looked at by someone to decide if if I would be a good candidate which was a really weird thing of like there's a question that pops up on the screen record yourself answering it and we'll look at it and get back to you that. Just felt very impersonal to me in a lot of ways and and was was weird and a lot of people didn't like that and so moving your through those phases just just filled a lot different communication. Some ways can be slower than when you're outside candidates or faster really depends. But so that's why I interviewed for two jobs actually got accepted. Indeed jobs in trees in person but I didn't I didn't get chosen for those jobs I can get a lot of feedback on why I didn't cuz I kind of felt within my realm one was for like a different calibration position and electric vehicles and one was for a thermal position and electric vehicles so so so two jobs that had some of the exact words that were in my current job title and I still was not not a good fit for those and so that was a little frustrating for me a lot of ways was like okay like I'm trying to make this move I'm applying for other jobs that I thought you know I was less interested in but I thought I would at least be able to more likely to get the job and I wasn't even like getting any call backs on those to do any sort of follow-up as I really was just born of frustration in my current job I was in I've been doing it for a few years ahead slow down from being new stuff now just being kind of doing the same thing over again I called it rinse and repeat a lot because of a lot of work to have to be redone if a new model of a car comes out where everything is most of Same piece of Frontalot the same tests to make sure it's no it complies with Waze and omissions things and it wasn't wasn't very exciting for me more as a for something new and so after kind of some of these setbacks as well as a decision for my wife and I too want to move to be be closer to family and things I decided that you know, it was it was time for me to leave GM and pursue other opportunities. And so this this this part now this is all happening during during covid-19 and soda sizing to to quit your job without having another one lined up in the middle of a pandemic is an interesting thing, which I can't say. I necessarily recommend but having gone through it now and seeing all that work out for a lot of people I think in the engineering area if you're going into the right industry, it can definitely work out

Speaker 1: Adam Hinds episode 2 talking about like if you think you can think about you can make a change in you have at least a luxury car look at Industry cycle X. Most Industries have a high and a low and if you think you're going to be making a change, so I try to make your change when it's most likely you're not going to be in some serious trough. But your point that that will get into you also need to look at the industry that you potentially might want to go into cuz you know, yeah the industry you're in might be in a bad time. But if you're making a jump to an industry that's in a good time. Doesn't matter. So interesting insights on that if you're honest about episode, but okay, so the

Speaker 2: family Yeah, so for us that I know I was working the Metro Detroit area for us that meant moving across the state to the Grand Rapids area, which we're at now and moving somewhere like not in automotive industry and they're really as much there's a lot of suppliers I should say but it's moving from a a OEM type area two more of a supplier base generally. So people who are supplying a lot of in West Michigan a lot of plastic parts to. Todd Motor Company's is also few other Industries. I was looking at but I was busy like, I need a job. I got I got to support the family here. So I got a cast my net pretty wide. And before I even kind of made the switch after some of the the disappointment of not getting selected for some jobs within GM. I actually had decided to get some career coaching in a lot of ways which was something I had not thought about before it all but it had to come recommended to me through or threw a co-worker of mine that includes wife. Did it just a woman who by referral like has was an engineer had to do For years and now decides like you don't help young engineers get things figured out in their career side and I was actually really helpful experience over a few sessions like understanding things are improving the resume but also Baloch think about what you really want to do. Like, where do you fit in in your personality? Are you someone who is really good at wanting just run tests and look at data or do you want to be more creative and you'll prototype things and do stuff early on and not enough stuff to worry about all the details of How It's actually going to come off the manufacturing line or something and that was really helpful experience for me to think about what kind of job should I be looking for? Because I wouldn't I wouldn't say I learn necessarily anything new but it brought things to the surface. I hadn't thought about okay, here's a job, but I don't think that's why I was actually going to be what I want to do. So that really helped me guide a little bit of what I was looking for it. And of course in the in the pandemic there came a time where I'm like, you know, I'm I'm quitting my job at two weeks. I don't have a job lined up. I got to lower my standards a little bit here. But I got very lucky. So there was a job opening at Bissell. So Bissell Homecare maker of cleaning products vacuum carpet cleaners, lots of things like that. They're based out of West Michigan there in Grand Rapids, and they had an opening for a product development engineer and I had seen that and I'd actually interviewed with them previously for a Electronics Testing Engineer which was outside my run expertise but kind of sound interesting I didn't get that job, but Dad said, hey like we kind of like you to Candice if you see something else get ahold of us when you apply for it. And so I came up. I called the recruiting as a cat fight for this job and I kind of like fast-tracked me into the day getting interview and the job. I mean the job descriptions of course and we tacos before job descriptions don't actually Masjid realities, but at least a job description on this was very interesting. I'll be out like getting to develop products going to be part of the whole life cycle working with multiple people in the company in different areas that really That really appealed to me and then I got lucky enough energy for that job and and was accepted for us. And when I found out later was that and you can still figure this out. Now if you just go to companies and see me job postings I have that pandemic has been a big boom for for home cleaning products in a lot of different ways. Like that was an industry that has a blown up basically in a good way because of because of him. We're Keebler a home there cleaning their house more sanitation is a big thing. So a lot of companies in that space RR we're hiring and they still are so that was definitely one way that benefited from

Speaker 1: can talk a little bit of more about how you cast in a wide net what that looks like a man is probably a lot of people that go and say, okay. Well, I'm going to make a change and what did that look like for you? Like is that means it's going to Indy and just typing engineer as opposed to calibration engineer. How how do you do that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it took a lot of legwork and figuring out what even companies existed so I know the geographic area I was going into I knew the industry industries of be a little different and I was like okay I can go to a d I can look for jobs like I'm going glass door and see what's out there let me just search Google Maps and you like what companies exist in these you know he's industrial areas where they might be engineering like looking at all that seeing what's out there what do they do making list of stuff I had a few we on sheets of information on like what companies might want to work for and also like reaching out to people so I hid it actually interviewed with a company in West Michigan have a 4 to take my job at GM and nothing worked out there that time and so I still had reached out to them again and said hey like I'm still interested in working here and I would actually I think interviewed with them as going down that route and then the pandemic hit and that kind of close the opportunities on that but even talking with them and then ask Mike who else should I talk to you know why I called a few other people Who worked at other companies and said hey, what do you do like my mother-in-law like knew someone whose husband works for a company type thing is like, you know their engineering department. It was it was called people emailing trying to get more information about what exists out there, and asking them like, you know, what what exists in this area and so it was for me specifically I was looking less at Industries and more at what I wanted to do. So I want to be a little more Hands-On a little more in the Prototype phase of things. I want to be further upstream and I wasn't my my previous job where I was at the end of the line trying to figure things out and so it was a lot of a lot of a lot of legwork in searching this job boards looking at companies website specifically and trying to figure out what was out there

Speaker 1: a bunch of times is job description stink at telling you what you actually do everyday and as far as that sounds like I mean, there's really still not many options right is still do you spell just trying to kind of go off that but I think Your points good in that, you know, you can decide just looking at Job boards to it can also be looking at companies to those as we've also found out a lot in the show as you can create opportunities like you can if you know if you were to find a company that look really interesting to you that did something very interesting like we're guard this one that they had a posting out. You can still reach out to them and that may have may have an opportunity to get you some of that you're just like you got it I get Dad any supposed to get to work out but it can keep you in line for a potentially different thing. So I think that's a that's really good thing. You can what year was also very relevant Brandon for people who are trying just moved to a different location because work is not their number one priority and it happens a lot with family. We've repeated that this sometimes in the show, but there's also Adam hide the depth of the great example of kind of the second transition an engineer. Like there's the transition from undergrad to first job and that's kind of why would interest is a second transition word life family and Other Things become more important than your job and you start making Your decisions based on your life being more important than your career. And that Austin time I think has met me last night with a pandemic but at least it used to be that the location was key. And so a lot of people have to start job searching from the location and not necessarily from the dream job and it's just something to think about for those for those listening is you know, what like what brand so I can buy skills to do that and you know, it's looking as you are to talk to me, I'm looking looking at Milan looking maybe differently than you would when you're moving into your first stage of finding that first job. It's a different type of Cruiser different type of

Speaker 2: the exactly your you can be more limited in some ways like your location like I mean, if if if if my wife's family wasn't here would I be in Michigan. Probably not I might go somewhere else but like that's that's where I'm at. So I got to make the most of the opportunities here and I you know, I found some good ones. I'm really happy with that. But you're also limited more in your preferences. Like I wanted to kind of work for a smaller company coming from a huge. Company in over a hundred thousand people and tens of thousands of Engineers like I wanted to do something else. So I kind of limited myself in that way to of me like, okay like work for a slightly smaller company ID to get more exposure different things. So you have it you have different lots of different criteria that can limit you on that and you know, my experience was unique as we had decided to make the move and then my wife's a teacher so that kind of put a timeline on our move in terms of school years and things but the best time to look for a job is when you already have one and you don't have to leave it and quit, so that's that's how I sound advice. There's like, you know, if you're thinking of it if you're thinking you might want to even make a change in a year from now start looking now to get that list of company is to get that list of your preferences for yourself of what opportunities even jobs exist out there today, even if they're not there later, you have an understanding because you don't want to go from like one job to the next job thinking that next job is D job, but you find out that it's you know, it's not really the best one because you were rushed to find it or You don't limit yourself in different ways

Speaker 1: to lighten the negotiation face cuz that's kind of a weird time. But my grandpa said that the person with the most power in negotiation is a person who can walk away

Speaker 2: exactly. Yeah,

Speaker 1: so that's that's something to think about. So you want to try and be setting yourself up for negotiation for whatever you can walk away if you want obviously that's the preferred preferred way. But you have some control over that it's not just a good piece of advice to start early, but I think this is important as product development engineer is I think a big common title for a mechanical engineer so I can you talk a little bit about what that role is from your from your perspective and I talked about the day today so that people can you familiar with that title.

Speaker 2: So it's definitely different like if you're at a big company vs. A smaller company like the roles there can be can be huge. I'm in your scope responsibility can be a lot different but When you're at a slightly smaller company that's not tens of thousands of people can be very Hands-On. You can go and sit a vino being part of just one small thing. You might be in charge of the whole engineering for the whole product from you know, what components go into it. What kind of functionality performance does it have a how do you make all that work? You know prototyping being Hands-On testing things out doing experiments in combining all together. It also depends a lot on the side of the product like I work on, you know, smaller products that you can hold up with one hand. So that means there's our skewer Parts doing a little bit less complexity then a car or you know, if he's a huge Machinery or something else and it needs company. I would say is different. So like I didn't know CAD work in my previous job ever touch cat wasn't in my room and now like, you know, I do a little bit of had to work but is also some cat specific people. So, you know, I switched and have to flex those muscles a little bit flex about the expecting out things like a Rick Motors or no running my own tests and experiments that aren't necessarily as defined when you're in sort of experimental phase. So getting me a project depending on what you're working on what your company in what phase of project you're coming in on can can mean a lot of different things from from prototyping experimenting to now he no doubt any final designs reviewing them making sure they're they're good to go off manufacturing. But if it's if you're looking to get into that part of engineering of Designing things and putting stuff together to come up with a final product and not just analysis testing or whatever like proactive measures probably what you want to be looking for. If you want to look back it. I look back in the product and say, you know, I I built this I created this that's definitely what the product development engineer role is.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's what are the titles of jobs that I think it's really pretty accurate. I don't know if too many product development. I don't know if I think if If you're right, but Android priming to develop in the products are responsible for improving the product and increasing its ability to perform certain performance metrics and other things like that until it's if you would give you a product development engineer on a type of product that you're interested in meeting it has the systems that you're interested in in Brennan's case batteries and electronics and things like that get you excited. Like that's that that's going to be a pretty good standard and enjoyable mechanical engineering job. I think I think it's one of the Common Core engineering type work jobs, obviously some mechanical aspects, you're going to need some kind of product mechanical engineer to do product development on it a little bit of the slew of R&D to manufacture. Like where does the crocodile man engineer sit-in can talk a little bit about that money before thinking about? Okay. Well you're on the end of the there was a calibration engineer now you are looking to move up a little bit. So Is not before its research and development and product development engineer gets kind of where does it state in the scale of product product life cycle

Speaker 2: in the middle. And then again what company what products you're working on? So even if it is GM we could say I did, you know, I was I wasn't research and development and I wasn't fully down the line like manufacturing somewhere in the middle there. But when you're you're dealing with having responsibility for you know, the physical parts of the product, it's usually lies somewhere in the middle. Someone is already else is done son of the R&D type work and figured out potential new systems are ways of doing things and so it's kind of your job to take those take that knowledge and incorporated into actually making a product that you can make and sell it take sort of the theoretical you're the perfect swirl case and how do we make you into something? That's an actual product? So it's it's kind of almost right after that are Indy step of okay, like let's prototype out things of how they can be. Recognized so you got a little bit of that sort of a Hands-On. Let's just throw some stuff together and you know, it makes it a whole system works. Okay. Now, how can we treat this and refine it to make it make it production and it can also go down a little bit to the final product testing a lot of ways or at least in terms of looking at the results to say. Okay someone else Randy's testing to become with the test, but I can look at the results. As soon as this me sort of the the metrics that we said at the beginning of the development process to make sure we're meeting those and being responsible for that. So again, a different company is going to be that different in there going to different possibilities and scope. But when you're at when you are probably Feldman engineer on Annalisa smell our products you get to own a lot of that throughout the process bigger products, you might disown one subsystem of that and it's, you know, desiigner performance some things and how and then handed off work at the corporate into larger system. But usually you're getting to be much more involved with the whole life cycle of the

Speaker 1: product. Yeah, it's kind of scary for people. Like I like I think about is like you could be like a research and development engineer at the start of the process where it's like we have nothing but got what we need. Okay. Well, we need an electric motor we need brushes and okay well hand that to the product development engineer. They're going to say they're going to figure out exactly what more do we need exactly the size of the brush is how it's going to say to the container in what the pieces are going to look like in the rough cost. Okay, then you move from there to like manufacturing engineer. They're okay. They're they're actually made late. They're not changing anything. They're just taking it and they end making it and then you can even move after manufacturing to like sales support like application Engineers that are out there like helping the customer base understand how to use the product. So if a broad range that you can sit in as an engineer and to your point early, but I'm trying to emphasize this is that's another decision point for you to have this is where in this cycle do you want to sit and what what is more interesting you in the same way? You're going to decide what industry you're in and where you're going to physically be it's also Where in the product life cycle do I want to be and I think probably Coupe R2 for you, since you probably working multiple products as you get to be that kind of different points for different products if it's a new product release because you work on it since you're a smaller company do you get to work on multiple projects?

Speaker 2: I actually only work on one project at a time being like the main engineering person on that project and really devoting a lot of my, you know my resource energy to us, but I'd like different companies are going to that different obviously like you might be multiple projects that can be totally different have a structure it for me. I get to work on one project at a time for the most part. I'm really be diving at the phone that

Speaker 1: I think I think he's diapers were crazy work on multiple products with a different points of their life cycle at the same time. So I can we watch the office on Monday and you might work a couple hours and product that early in a couple hours and projects later in a cycle and do that type of thing. Where is You know when I may be a little bigger company, which you are, you know, you're just focused on one product and if you went in an even bigger there be multiple product dominant genes for a single product in you know, that's just another thing to think about. I mean, I don't we talk about this like a bad decision point but we also want to I think I want it now. She's eight. You don't listen to have the answer to this right? I mean meaning like if I were to go and just ask anyone like a like we're in the product life cycle. Do you want to be you know, what you do like big company small, a lot of people haven't thought about it. Like a lot of people don't necessarily think about it and we're just letting just trying to help provide things that you could think about if you have the opportunity to cuz sometimes you might not you might not have the ability to pick between these different things. But

Speaker 2: at least it was like, you know what you're not stuck in one job for the rest of your life. Like you can experiment with a few different things depending how you want to do what you did a few years here. They're moving from the same company and try different things out like you might eventually find something and he spends the numbers you spent 10 years experimenting with different jobs. Grow what you wanted, you know, you still got 10 to 20. However long you want to work to finally be like that one thing you really like and so don't don't think you're stuck in one thing forever and definitely I would say take more focused efforts really think about what you want to do and what factors go into that and try exploring some of

Speaker 1: it. advice from the show is you know I think about what you want and then try and run experiments whatever that means to see if you like it or not and you know whether that weather in undergrad student doing that or whether you're a v 1015 your person and Industry doing that that's just how you run those experiments are different but I don't know a lot of people to be as happy as they can the job in to not settle on a job just thinking that's their only option there's a ton of options and there's a lot of different ways that you could use the knowledge that you listening to right now how do you know if you're not in a survey happy with what you are right now are you think you could be happier why why not try it I mean unless you don't have the time to make the change it but if you have the time MLB the Show at giving you some ways of looking at it and understanding how you can make that next move. That's really been my bake. My biggest reason for wanting to do this is done to help undergraduate students figure out how to do it. But also for those people that are in Industry right now figure out how do I make a change and what it look like, can I make a change and I think Brandon store here is a great example of that or he changed and is doing a totally different job without a change in credentials and

Speaker 2: like that point to like my experience and practice element was very small for where my previous job was to where I'm at now, like I was working with a lot of software and looking at code and testings out date analysis and at my current job. It's much more Hands-On and physical like they're going in does interviews where's the questions of like you know tell me about something you know you designed and created I'm like well I haven't created or sign anything physical like in my jobs that wasn't my job but here's the other skills that I have done in other ways I have done things and so if you're late you're looking at a job being like really want to do that but I don't have like the exact requirements like it's it's less about those requirements and you thinking more about more about you more about how your processes are how you go about problems and how you think you can apply that to the job you're going for

Speaker 1: especially in those rules that we talked about your current role is where it's not a technically specific Bank Brighton means different when it's like hey we need someone to come in who knows see who can run see all day long do whatever you do with a very very specific technical thing like that's different do you know you got to have to have those skills usually but for the for the broad Market of mechanical engineering or even other discipline engineering jobs that keep you don't necessarily need to have it and we made it to be fair I just think about this now we're a little bored I was a huge zit Buys in mechanical engineering I mean I think it's probably very similar for electrical engineering but I think you probably defer is probably not in civil and those throws my out of just I just want to know is that this this information is for this episode has been pretty bias towards mechanical engineering what kind of getting towards the end is there anything else you want to bring up by Minar time today

Speaker 2: I think the one the one other thing that I thought about a lot in terms of like jobs inspection the engineering side is like how were evaluated those dreaded performance reviews and everything about that because I think is an engineer's we tend to think like our work will speak for itself which I I found out what is is really not the case in so many ways and it can lead to a lot of frustration equipped with people I've talked to Four places I've worked at and things of always feeling like not understanding how processes work of how are we evaluated, you know, we get to the end of the year people say we did a good job, but that doesn't lead to any like huge tangible change like no big recognition or bonus or whatever you like. What what do I do with that information? And so it's something that I really been exposed to recently is is the different theories and models I guess of like, how are evaluated as employees? I think if you haven't thought about it's really important I think about it and and this comes and I think this Rings true based on some experience I've had but one one thing I've learned that recently it's called that the pi model of I don't know valuation whatever it's beastly performance image exposure and we have Engineers tend to focus on a performance like, you know, I do my job. Well, I meet my metrics my goals and I can make great things like obviously I should be rewarded for that. But it leaves out a lot of the other things of the image of how do people see you work. And what are you viewed as and how much? But we sure do you get two people further up in your company. Like you're not your boss, but your boss's boss asks, if we forget about the idea that we have to sell ourselves if we want to to move up. We think we sold ourselves in the interview. You want to hire me like isn't that good enough? I should let you speak for itself like anybody but I want it. So this this has happened to me after a few years of your performance reviews. Like, you know, you're always he did a great job, but you Nike make good pad on the back and I'll be like, okay. Well it like I didn't I didn't do anything special like I wasn't getting much of a raise or anything for this like what what what can I do wrong? What can I do different and you know that she backyard like, I don't know I guess I'll have to think about that from from my managers. I'm like, I don't I don't know what I supposed to do with that. But then then I finally got some feedbacks like yeah, I think we need to get you more in front of like, you know, my manager is a dick in me to get you more in front of my boss. And so it was about being like yeah, you always have to look one step up from where you're at and in part of it is because whether we like it or not, we're being ranked against Arco. You are graded on a bell curve at work whether you like it or not. And there are only so many people are going to get chosen to get that that a plus and the rest of us are going to get put in C range and that's not going to hurt us, but it's not going to move you forward. So you really have to pick and in my mind, you know, you talked about playing games earlier in your career and in my mind, this is a game where you you have to choose if you're going to play it or not. Like I used to be happy doing your ear one job that you're out of making lateral moves and finding what you want. Like that's totally fine. But that's that's one while you're playing the game. If you want to be someone who moves up to more leadership roles with us managerial or technical leadership roles, like that's a different game to play that requires getting f***** in front of more people and you know being more explicit about your goals and stuff and I think that's something we miss you and I and I say that just because I haven't talked to other people and then kind of feeling the same way and so am I my advice to people out there is really think about you know, what kind of game are you playing? What kind of exposure are you getting at work? And is that is that what you want to be doing? and where you're at because they're there different things you think about

Speaker 1: I would say that I think It sounds like internal networking. It has to be done, but that he'll inside your bones cuz I mean so I will say something I think that's largely I think big big business the game all the games in big business. You know, it's typically it's typical that they have a thing where a we can only give one person I bonus this year or there's a there's a distribution in so when they attacked those types of things like hey, the paint out of bonuses have to be in the bell-shaped form like that instantly means comparison because you have to establish and that I think happens more easily in big companies because they have a hard question of hey, how do we give out bonuses? I think I don't think there's that's an easy question to answer if you're in Engineering Management or HR figure out this and do that. But so you to your example, like if you're trying to figure out how to beat bugs mean things but I think it can be different and small companies because they are more in control of their funds but it can also be worse than that. They have less funds to maybe give out as bonuses. And

Speaker 2: yeah, I think that's I mean that's the point I would make two is it seems from both sides a little bit like yeah, there's less, you know, there's less promotion opportunities of small companies cuz there's less layers unless you know, what's Some people there. So there's less opportunity there and you had to take companies like they have to think about that and all day and they have more money but they have more employees. So how do you spread that out and stuff

Speaker 1: and do it somewhere and I think it's a harder thing one big rap I have with universities right now. It seems like there's a big push to give everyone aged and they can do that and really they could do that only at the sacrifice of their own image and it seems to be tending to go that way like I used to be the average. I don't think that's the case now, there's no way that a c is an average now seems like a failing grade now seems like it's all applying that same kind of ID to two bonuses. Like you can't you can't you can't give like the bottom 10% not the exact I stay on it, but then give it like a bunch of people accused bonuses. Like this is not realistic like you don't have funds to do that. And so That's just kind of how the system works until then we talked about how you got to look at how you view how that call the company views you write to imagine. You're an engineering manager two levels up and you haven't whatever S2000 engine years on you that you don't know any of their names and you were told to a assign bonuses to all them. Okay? Well, let's just as a manager drank their average mean and you know, they can pick one person may be at the high bonus, but like if they're better than the average like, okay well, but then to your point like, well, what if what if they go in like manner ones as well Brandon, I like him but pretty but that guy but they know Brandon and like its it gets you have to think about it. Like you're the like you're the hiring manager and that's where that interesting exposure peace comes up in the model that you talked about and I think that seemed more evidently when you're thinking about it from the business side than your own side. I guess is what I'm trying to say

Speaker 2: networking like getting the job. I was someone to send out just for you and they don't Technically, I know you're a good person. So like, you know what give you an interview with the same sort of thing here and it's just I think it's something that you have to be aware of like each company might do things different. But you know from from my experience would have heard from others like you you are getting ranked against your colleagues whether you like it or not and and luckily enough. I think most people don't necessarily do that in a competitive at least on the on the you know, on the engineering side people. I've seen don't see it as a competitive. I have to beat my colleague or anything. They think of it still at the team work, but you know, they're still there still conversations that you're not a part of where are y'all kind of being compared to see who comes out on top in and having you know, you're working fortunately doesn't just speak for itself in the areas. So being aware of of of what kind of games are going on and what you want to be apart of cuz it takes time and energy to to network with more people in the company to get to know your your boss's boss and all those types of things and actually one more thing, you know what to put time and energy into if that's important that you still doing that if it's less important than what about just doing your job and they'll be fine but not being aware of that can be and then they getting frustrated later on or confused can be I think something that you don't want to have happen so it's important be aware that I think if you have to like ask about it hopefully you're you know you have a good relationship with your manager where you can get that sort of advice or mentorship from someone else in your company of you know how does this work how can I you know how can I set myself up to have the success that I won a half with him

Speaker 1: company performance side of it I think it's it's kind of hit so weird it's a weird side of it Yeah, I don't know why I keep trying to knock people always call it a game that I talked to that they would be able to wear as a game and I was at I always hated that maybe it is very easily become a game. I guess in terms of how you think about it and strategy which is unfortunate but maybe realistic but I think with that call episode 23 Donkeys, I think ya self rated as a good one. That's pretty good things going to mention for those listening, and we're going to take a little bit of a Hiatus on EYC episodes Reddit. I got some life stuff that were working on so we can't get it to go to look at last time to UIC at least for the foreseeable future, but we got some other things that were trying to accomplish in life. So as if everything that we do it right we all have to prioritize our time and makes decision to move want to focus our time on and I think Brandon I've been very happy with you. My time has been able to dedicate to UIC and we hope it can you need to do that at some point? I'm at least for now. We got to kind of put on the back burner to accomplish some other life goals bid you adieu and will hopefully be and talk better soon. Bye. Bye.

Speaker 2: Thanks for listening this episode of engineer your career with Troy Bauman and Brennan Tamarack for more information about the show visit our website at I see podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with Troy and I if you or someone you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey I would like to be on the show go on the website send us a short bio and we made it to invite you to come on and share your story and finally if you want to show your support please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice I see podcast.com there you can find show notes for each episode and get in touch with Troy and I if you or someone you know are an engineer with an interesting or even not so interesting career journey I would like to be on the show go on the website send us a short bio and we made it to invite you to come on and share your story and finally if you want to show your support please rate review like or subscribe to the show on your podcast player of choice